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Dealing with the mathematical troll - and an observation about independence

KM
Kristofer Munsterhjelm
Thu, Jul 17, 2025 11:14 PM

I had a post lined up about my second approach to try to find a monotone
resistant set method but failing, and then I thought I would do a few
more tests to just add supplementary information...

... and then that turned into a much longer and more involved
experiment, and I think I've done it. I think I've found a monotone
resistant set method.

I want to prove it before I claim it with certainty, but my simulations
have been unable to find any counterexamples yet.

So either I have been thoroughly trolled, or I beat the troll. I'll find
out one way or the other :-)

But another observation: In 2023, Filip Ejlak commented that
Resistant//X methods fail monotonicity[1]. I responded by saying that
this means that a hypothetical "independence from non-resistant
alternatives" property (independence from vulnerable alternatives,
maybe?) is incompatible with monotonicity.

But I think we can say something more general: if a method elects from
an "X-set" (of some definition) and passes majority, then independence
from X-dominated alternatives is impossible if there exist situations
where set X contains only a single candidate A, but someone outside the
set (say candidate C) beats A pairwise. In that case we can eliminate
everybody but A and C. By independence from X-dominated alternatives,
this shouldn't change the outcome, but C beats A pairwise and the method
passes majority, it is forced to elect C. Hence independence from
X-dominated alternatives is impossible.

And that's what's really going on in Filip's example. A is the sole
resistant set member because A~>B (A has more than a third of first
preferences and also beats B pairwise), and B~>C (ditto B and B beats C
pairwise). However, C beats A pairwise. So no majoritarian method can
pass independence of non-resistant alternatives because if it did, it
must elect A in Filip's example, but then we eliminate B (which is not
in the resistant set) and it must elect C.

-km
(65e733d0c246a08410c8b9330abb...)

[1]
http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2023-August/004753.html

I had a post lined up about my second approach to try to find a monotone resistant set method but failing, and then I thought I would do a few more tests to just add supplementary information... ... and then that turned into a much longer and more involved experiment, and I think I've done it. I think I've found a monotone resistant set method. I want to prove it before I claim it with certainty, but my simulations have been unable to find any counterexamples yet. So either I have been thoroughly trolled, or I beat the troll. I'll find out one way or the other :-) But another observation: In 2023, Filip Ejlak commented that Resistant//X methods fail monotonicity[1]. I responded by saying that this means that a hypothetical "independence from non-resistant alternatives" property (independence from vulnerable alternatives, maybe?) is incompatible with monotonicity. But I think we can say something more general: if a method elects from an "X-set" (of some definition) and passes majority, then independence from X-dominated alternatives is impossible if there exist situations where set X contains only a single candidate A, but someone outside the set (say candidate C) beats A pairwise. In that case we can eliminate everybody but A and C. By independence from X-dominated alternatives, this shouldn't change the outcome, but C beats A pairwise and the method passes majority, it is forced to elect C. Hence independence from X-dominated alternatives is impossible. And that's what's really going on in Filip's example. A is the sole resistant set member because A~>B (A has more than a third of first preferences and also beats B pairwise), and B~>C (ditto B and B beats C pairwise). However, C beats A pairwise. So no majoritarian method can pass independence of non-resistant alternatives because if it did, it must elect A in Filip's example, but then we eliminate B (which is not in the resistant set) and it must elect C. -km (65e733d0c246a08410c8b9330abb...) [1] http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2023-August/004753.html