Poll on voting-systems, to inform voters in upcoming enactment-elections
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
"Some voting systems" is a bit vague, and Mike here is coy on which is
the one they're about to vote on.
I gather it is STAR, but that isn't one of the methods he nominated.
I will be doing quite a bit of equal-ranking, and I think it would be
good if the poll had more than one
in first place, and an indication that some others are acceptable and a
big improvement on FPP,
so voters and would-be reformers can make their own judgements among
those on what is and what
isn't proposable and/or practical.
Chris
http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2024-April/005617.html
Michael Ossipoffemail9648742 at gmail.com
mailto:election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20Poll%20on%20voting-systems%2C%0A%20to%20inform%20voters%20in%20upcoming%20enactment-elections&In-Reply-To=%3CCAOKDY5BkSGJkX%3D7zWXBr2t1SBNVMNj96wm-T8ubvr_wGM5h51w%40mail.gmail.com%3E
/Wed Apr 3 22:13:28 PDT 2024/
EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose
one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two
states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to know
how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits of
some voting-systems.
So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the experience
of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll do—& are
therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I now
propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
The voting-method for the poll:
It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system, among
the people at EM.
…& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite
voting-system, Approval won.
Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.
I prefer RP(wv) to Beatpath, mostly for its simple, intuitively natural &
obvious rule, but also for its LIIAC compliance, & the fact that its winner
usually pairbeats Schulze’s winner.
But I guess Schulze is more popular due to its more efficient algorithm.
Anyway so I suggest that the poll I propose have a Schulze balloting &
count, & an Approval balloting & count.
Voting would consist of posting a ranking & an approval-set, in one post.
Candidate voting-systems:
My purpose isn’t an all-inclusive poll among all proposed voting-systems.
…just a very few ones that are the most popular here at EM, solely to have
a little comparison to the main voting system being publicly voted on this
year.
So it should just be among a few voting-systems. Additionally, no reason to
make the alternatives-lineup too time-consumingly large by including
methods unlikely to win anyway.
I’ll suggest a few obvious inclusions. But, of course every poll here
should have the possibility of nomination of whatever alternative anyone
wants to nominate.
I’ll list my nominations in this post, & I claim that those few are all the
alternatives needed for the poll. …& anyone can nominate anything during a
1-week nomination-period.
I suggest the following voting-systems as candidates in the poll, the
alternatives among which to vote:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
IRV
(Schulze & RP are often said to be the ranked-methods most popular among
single-winner reform community, & that seems true at EM.)
Is there any need for more alternatives than that?
I suggest a nomination period of exactly one week, starting at the time
recorded as the posting-time-&-date of this post.
After which a voting-period of exactly one month would start…at the exact
time as the end of the nomination-period.
If there are no nominations (I suggest that none are needed) during the
nomination-period—& if, during the nomination-period, no one posts the
words “I second the suggestion of a poll”—then of course there’d not be a
poll.
Again, I realize that polls are no longer popular here, but this is a
special situation, bringing a need for voters in the upcoming public
enactment-election to have a chance to hear how people at EM feel about
relative merit among voting-systems. So let’s make an exception to the
absence of polls here, for voters in the next election.
On 2024-04-13 07:54, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
//>//>/On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 16:05 Kristofer Munsterhjelm : />//>//>>/I would prefer that the merit question for the poll stays the same: />>/"which voting methods do you prefer to which others?", i.e. ranking />>/them />>/in preference. />//>>/Then it would be up to the individual voter to consider what aspects of />>/the method are most important />//>//>/:-D. “…stays the same”? You’re trying to completely reverse the />/express-purpose & entire fundamental nature of the poll that I proposed. />/It was for informing voters about the EM membership’s social-ranking of />/proposals for public political elections. /
(Ignore my last message; my computer had a hiccup.)
What this shows is that the purpose of the poll wasn't made clear
enough. See also Joseph Malkevitch' post, "Purpose of Poll 2".
Could you give a link to the post where you first proposed the subject
of the poll, before the voting itself started? I'd be happy to just
continue with that subject, as long as we stick with it instead of
changing it after the voting period has started.
In other words, I'm not trying to sneakily change anything, but I would
prefer it to stay consistent with what was first proposed.
-km
On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 04:50 Chris Benham cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au wrote:
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
"Some voting systems" is a bit vague
It’s vague because initially I didn’t know what voting-systems would be
nominated. :-D
, and Mike here is coy on which is the one they're about to vote on.
Hopefully we were “about to” vote on a nominated set of methods.
But maybe you meant that I was coy about what voting system we were going
to use. No, actually I suggested Schulze, with the understanding that of
course it would be necessary to choose, if other participants suggest
different methods.
I gather it is STAR, but that isn't one of the methods he nominated.
You gather very strangely. I suggested Schulze.
…or were you referring to Mike Garman. …an instance where surname would
have been useful.
I will be doing quite a bit of equal-ranking, and I think it would be good
if the poll had more than one
in first place, and an indication that some others are acceptable and a
big improvement on FPP,
so voters and would-be reformers can make their own judgements among those
on what is and what
isn't proposable and/or practical.
The poll of course would give whatever output-ranking results from the
voted-rankings.
Chris
http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2024-April/005617.html
Michael Ossipoff email9648742 at gmail.com
<election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20Poll%20on%20voting-systems%2C%0A%20to%20inform%20voters%20in%20upcoming%20enactment-elections&In-Reply-To=%3CCAOKDY5BkSGJkX%3D7zWXBr2t1SBNVMNj96wm-T8ubvr_wGM5h51w%40mail.gmail.com%3E>
Wed Apr 3 22:13:28 PDT 2024
EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose
one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two
states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to know
how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits of
some voting-systems.
So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the experience
of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll do—& are
therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I now
propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
The voting-method for the poll:
It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system, among
the people at EM.
…& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite
voting-system, Approval won.
Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.
I prefer RP(wv) to Beatpath, mostly for its simple, intuitively natural &
obvious rule, but also for its LIIAC compliance, & the fact that its winner
usually pairbeats Schulze’s winner.
But I guess Schulze is more popular due to its more efficient algorithm.
Anyway so I suggest that the poll I propose have a Schulze balloting &
count, & an Approval balloting & count.
Voting would consist of posting a ranking & an approval-set, in one post.
Candidate voting-systems:
My purpose isn’t an all-inclusive poll among all proposed voting-systems.
…just a very few ones that are the most popular here at EM, solely to have
a little comparison to the main voting system being publicly voted on this
year.
So it should just be among a few voting-systems. Additionally, no reason to
make the alternatives-lineup too time-consumingly large by including
methods unlikely to win anyway.
I’ll suggest a few obvious inclusions. But, of course every poll here
should have the possibility of nomination of whatever alternative anyone
wants to nominate.
I’ll list my nominations in this post, & I claim that those few are all the
alternatives needed for the poll. …& anyone can nominate anything during a
1-week nomination-period.
I suggest the following voting-systems as candidates in the poll, the
alternatives among which to vote:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
IRV
(Schulze & RP are often said to be the ranked-methods most popular among
single-winner reform community, & that seems true at EM.)
Is there any need for more alternatives than that?
I suggest a nomination period of exactly one week, starting at the time
recorded as the posting-time-&-date of this post.
After which a voting-period of exactly one month would start…at the exact
time as the end of the nomination-period.
If there are no nominations (I suggest that none are needed) during the
nomination-period—& if, during the nomination-period, no one posts the
words “I second the suggestion of a poll”—then of course there’d not be a
poll.
Again, I realize that polls are no longer popular here, but this is a
special situation, bringing a need for voters in the upcoming public
enactment-election to have a chance to hear how people at EM feel about
relative merit among voting-systems. So let’s make an exception to the
absence of polls here, for voters in the next election.
On 2024-04-13 07:54, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
- On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 16:05 Kristofer Munsterhjelm :
> > >> I would prefer that the merit question for the poll stays the same:
>> "which voting methods do you prefer to which others?", i.e. ranking
>> them
>> in preference.
> >> Then it would be up to the individual voter to consider what aspects of
>> the method are most important
> > > :-D. “…stays the same”? You’re trying to completely reverse the
> express-purpose & entire fundamental nature of the poll that I proposed.
> It was for informing voters about the EM membership’s social-ranking of
> proposals for public political elections.
*
(Ignore my last message; my computer had a hiccup.)
What this shows is that the purpose of the poll wasn't made clear
enough. See also Joseph Malkevitch' post, "Purpose of Poll 2".
Could you give a link to the post where you first proposed the subject
of the poll, before the voting itself started? I'd be happy to just
continue with that subject, as long as we stick with it instead of
changing it after the voting period has started.
In other words, I'm not trying to sneakily change anything, but I would
prefer it to stay consistent with what was first proposed.
-km
On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 10:16 Michael Ossipoff email9648742@gmail.com
wrote:
so voters and would-be reformers can make their own judgements among those
on what is and what
isn't proposable and/or practical.
Yes, but evidently that won’t be, because several people insist on
changing the poll from that purpose, to a plain popularity-contest without
reference or relevance to any particular application (such as public
political elections), & I’m tired of arguing with them, & don’t have time
to.
Chris
http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2024-April/005617.html
Michael Ossipoff email9648742 at gmail.com
<election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20Poll%20on%20voting-systems%2C%0A%20to%20inform%20voters%20in%20upcoming%20enactment-elections&In-Reply-To=%3CCAOKDY5BkSGJkX%3D7zWXBr2t1SBNVMNj96wm-T8ubvr_wGM5h51w%40mail.gmail.com%3E>
Wed Apr 3 22:13:28 PDT 2024
EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose
one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two
states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to know
how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits of
some voting-systems.
So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the experience
of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll do—& are
therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I now
propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
The voting-method for the poll:
It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system, among
the people at EM.
…& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite
voting-system, Approval won.
Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.
I prefer RP(wv) to Beatpath, mostly for its simple, intuitively natural &
obvious rule, but also for its LIIAC compliance, & the fact that its winner
usually pairbeats Schulze’s winner.
But I guess Schulze is more popular due to its more efficient algorithm.
Anyway so I suggest that the poll I propose have a Schulze balloting &
count, & an Approval balloting & count.
Voting would consist of posting a ranking & an approval-set, in one post.
Candidate voting-systems:
My purpose isn’t an all-inclusive poll among all proposed voting-systems.
…just a very few ones that are the most popular here at EM, solely to have
a little comparison to the main voting system being publicly voted on this
year.
So it should just be among a few voting-systems. Additionally, no reason to
make the alternatives-lineup too time-consumingly large by including
methods unlikely to win anyway.
I’ll suggest a few obvious inclusions. But, of course every poll here
should have the possibility of nomination of whatever alternative anyone
wants to nominate.
I’ll list my nominations in this post, & I claim that those few are all the
alternatives needed for the poll. …& anyone can nominate anything during a
1-week nomination-period.
I suggest the following voting-systems as candidates in the poll, the
alternatives among which to vote:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
IRV
(Schulze & RP are often said to be the ranked-methods most popular among
single-winner reform community, & that seems true at EM.)
Is there any need for more alternatives than that?
I suggest a nomination period of exactly one week, starting at the time
recorded as the posting-time-&-date of this post.
After which a voting-period of exactly one month would start…at the exact
time as the end of the nomination-period.
If there are no nominations (I suggest that none are needed) during the
nomination-period—& if, during the nomination-period, no one posts the
words “I second the suggestion of a poll”—then of course there’d not be a
poll.
Again, I realize that polls are no longer popular here, but this is a
special situation, bringing a need for voters in the upcoming public
enactment-election to have a chance to hear how people at EM feel about
relative merit among voting-systems. So let’s make an exception to the
absence of polls here, for voters in the next election.
On 2024-04-13 07:54, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
- On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 16:05 Kristofer Munsterhjelm :
> > >> I would prefer that the merit question for the poll stays the same:
>> "which voting methods do you prefer to which others?", i.e. ranking
>> them
>> in preference.
> >> Then it would be up to the individual voter to consider what aspects of
>> the method are most important
> > > :-D. “…stays the same”? You’re trying to completely reverse the
> express-purpose & entire fundamental nature of the poll that I proposed.
> It was for informing voters about the EM membership’s social-ranking of
> proposals for public political elections.
*
(Ignore my last message; my computer had a hiccup.)
What this shows is that the purpose of the poll wasn't made clear
enough. See also Joseph Malkevitch' post, "Purpose of Poll 2".
Could you give a link to the post where you first proposed the subject
of the poll, before the voting itself started? I'd be happy to just
continue with that subject, as long as we stick with it instead of
changing it after the voting period has started.
In other words, I'm not trying to sneakily change anything, but I would
prefer it to stay consistent with what was first proposed.
-km
Mike,
You have a great talent for getting the wrong end of the stick.
, and Mike here is coy on which is the one they're about to vote on.
Hopefully we were “about to” vote on a nominated set of methods.
Have you noticed that "they" doesn't mean the same thing as "we"?
Quoting you again:
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
Could these "voters" you mention be the "they" that I referred to?
Chris
On 14/04/2024 2:46 am, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
On Sat, Apr 13, 2024 at 04:50 Chris Benham cbenhamau@yahoo.com.au wrote:
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
"Some voting systems" is a bit vague
It’s vague because initially I didn’t know what voting-systems would
be nominated. :-D
, and Mike here is coy on which is the one they're about to vote on.
Hopefully we were “about to” vote on a nominated set of methods.
But maybe you meant that I was coy about what voting system we were
going to use. No, actually I suggested Schulze, with the understanding
that of course it would be necessary to choose, if other participants
suggest different methods.
I gather it is STAR, but that isn't one of the methods he nominated.
You gather very strangely. I suggested Schulze.
…or were you referring to Mike Garman. …an instance where surname
would have been useful.
I will be doing quite a bit of equal-ranking, and I think it would
be good if the poll had more than one
in first place, and an indication that some others are acceptable
and a big improvement on FPP,
so voters and would-be reformers can make their own judgements
among those on what is and what
isn't proposable and/or practical.
The poll of course would give whatever output-ranking results from the
voted-rankings.
Chris
http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2024-April/005617.html
*Michael Ossipoff*email9648742 at gmail.com
<mailto:election-methods%40lists.electorama.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BEM%5D%20Poll%20on%20voting-systems%2C%0A%20to%20inform%20voters%20in%20upcoming%20enactment-elections&In-Reply-To=%3CCAOKDY5BkSGJkX%3D7zWXBr2t1SBNVMNj96wm-T8ubvr_wGM5h51w%40mail.gmail.com%3E>
/Wed Apr 3 22:13:28 PDT 2024/
EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose
one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two
states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to know
how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits of
some voting-systems.
So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the experience
of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll do—& are
therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I now
propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
The voting-method for the poll:
It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system, among
the people at EM.
…& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite
voting-system, Approval won.
Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.
I prefer RP(wv) to Beatpath, mostly for its simple, intuitively natural &
obvious rule, but also for its LIIAC compliance, & the fact that its winner
usually pairbeats Schulze’s winner.
But I guess Schulze is more popular due to its more efficient algorithm.
Anyway so I suggest that the poll I propose have a Schulze balloting &
count, & an Approval balloting & count.
Voting would consist of posting a ranking & an approval-set, in one post.
Candidate voting-systems:
My purpose isn’t an all-inclusive poll among all proposed voting-systems.
…just a very few ones that are the most popular here at EM, solely to have
a little comparison to the main voting system being publicly voted on this
year.
So it should just be among a few voting-systems. Additionally, no reason to
make the alternatives-lineup too time-consumingly large by including
methods unlikely to win anyway.
I’ll suggest a few obvious inclusions. But, of course every poll here
should have the possibility of nomination of whatever alternative anyone
wants to nominate.
I’ll list my nominations in this post, & I claim that those few are all the
alternatives needed for the poll. …& anyone can nominate anything during a
1-week nomination-period.
I suggest the following voting-systems as candidates in the poll, the
alternatives among which to vote:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
IRV
(Schulze & RP are often said to be the ranked-methods most popular among
single-winner reform community, & that seems true at EM.)
Is there any need for more alternatives than that?
I suggest a nomination period of exactly one week, starting at the time
recorded as the posting-time-&-date of this post.
After which a voting-period of exactly one month would start…at the exact
time as the end of the nomination-period.
If there are no nominations (I suggest that none are needed) during the
nomination-period—& if, during the nomination-period, no one posts the
words “I second the suggestion of a poll”—then of course there’d not be a
poll.
Again, I realize that polls are no longer popular here, but this is a
special situation, bringing a need for voters in the upcoming public
enactment-election to have a chance to hear how people at EM feel about
relative merit among voting-systems. So let’s make an exception to the
absence of polls here, for voters in the next election.
On 2024-04-13 07:54, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
//>//>/On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 16:05 Kristofer Munsterhjelm : />//>//>>/I would prefer that the merit question for the poll stays the same: />>/"which voting methods do you prefer to which others?", i.e. ranking />>/them />>/in preference. />//>>/Then it would be up to the individual voter to consider what
aspects of />>/the method are most important />//>//>/:-D. “…stays the same”? You’re trying to completely reverse the />/express-purpose & entire fundamental nature of the poll that I
proposed. />/It was for informing voters about the EM membership’s
social-ranking of />/*proposals for public political elections*. /
(Ignore my last message; my computer had a hiccup.)
What this shows is that the purpose of the poll wasn't made clear
enough. See also Joseph Malkevitch' post, "Purpose of Poll 2".
Could you give a link to the post where you first proposed the subject
of the poll, before the voting itself started? I'd be happy to just
continue with that subject, as long as we stick with it instead of
changing it after the voting period has started.
In other words, I'm not trying to sneakily change anything, but I would
prefer it to stay consistent with what was first proposed.
-km