Being an electrical engineer that was ABD for a PhD in communications systems and signal processing, I have a little trouble seeing the connection to Shannon Information Theory.  Either in the measure of information content of a message or set of messages or of the definition of entropy or of the capacity of a channel to carry information.So could someone make the connection for me? I get that set of ordinal ballot data is discrete information and there's some way, such as Huffman coding, to represent that information in the most compact and essential way possible.But I don't see the connection to social choice theory.  Can someone help?robertPowered by Cric

Forest,
 
The
    efficiency of heat engines, in thermodynamics, offer an analogy
    with voting
    methods. Many other sciences do so, if voting method follows the
    Stevens
    structure of measurement, held in common by other branches of
    science. (I
    published a free e-book, about scientific models of election
    method, called:
    Science is Ethics as Electics.)
The
    basic principle, that thermodynamics and election method have in
    common is
    conservation, either of energy or information. (I believe
    scientists are
    currently translating energy terms into information terms.)
Common-place
    teachings of social choice theory, including the American
    Mathematics Society,
    usually make the claim that there is no perfect voting system.
    The equivalent
    statement in thermodynamics is that there is no perpetual motion
    machine.
As
    you point out, that does not preclude voting methods of
    different efficiency,
    the equivalent of heat engines of differing efficiency. The
    engines depend on
    efficient transfer of surplus heat, to work requirements, to
    keep the engine
    going. Similarly, transfers of vote surpluses, to elective
    quotas, keep the
    count procedure going. Heat forms a random distribution of
    motion. And votes
    typically form a random distribution of choice (subject to left
    or right
    skews).
Binomial STV
    would perhaps
    be rather more efficient than traditional STV, because it
    rationally conserves
    exclusion information. In rough analogy, a binomial STV “heat
    engine” is better
    “insulated,” to conserve heat. Thermodynamics is not just a
    dynamic of heat but
    also its insulation, in a closed system. Likewise, an election
    method is not
    just an active election, but also a closed system of exclusion.

  
Regards,
Richard
    Lung.

  

Like in audio data compression, I know the difference between lossy and lossless compression .  I sorta understand where the bits get allocated for the audio spectrum.  Like where it's appropriate to accurately represent the raw data and where we can fudge it a little.I don't know how to do that for voter data without making assumptions or postulates of the data.Powered by Cricket Wireless------ Original message------From: Carl SchroedlDate: Sun, Jun 5, 2022 1:16 PMTo: robert bristow-johnson;Cc: Forest Simmons;Richard Lung;EM;Subject:Re: [EM] ThermodynamicsAs a software guy, the connection I make is to something I have wondered for a while -- whether it is useful to study social choice functions as lossy compression algorithms. I haven't thought it through, but it could be interesting to see if the rate-distortion branch of information theory would apply.On Sat, Jun 4, 2022, 9:09 PM robert bristow-johnson <rbj@audioimagination.com> wrote: Being an electrical engineer that was ABD for a PhD in communications systems and signal processing, I have a little trouble seeing the connection to Shannon Information Theory.  Either in the measure of information content of a message or set of messages or of the definition of entropy or of the capacity of a channel to carry information.So could someone make the connection for me? I get that set of ordinal ballot data is discrete information and there's some way, such as Huffman coding, to represent that information in the most compact and essential way possible.But I don't see the connection to social choice theory.  Can someone help?robertPowered by Cric ket Wireless------ Original message------From: Forest SimmonsDate: Sat, Jun 4, 2022 4:06 PMTo: Richard Lung;Cc: EM;Subject:Re: [EM] ThermodynamicsTrue!Do an internet search of "information mechanics" to confirm the validity of this tight connection.Information mechanics seems to be the key for the "unified field theory" Einstein was looking for ... and more ... unification of classical and quantum fields for all of the forces ... strong, weak, and intermediate... if not a "theory of everything."El sáb., 4 de jun. de 2022 6:26 a. m., Richard Lung <voting@ukscientists.com> escribió: Forest,   The efficiency of heat engines, in thermodynamics, offer an analogy with voting methods. Many other sciences do so, if voting method follows the Stevens structure of measurement, held in common by other branches of science. (I published a free e-book, about scientific models of election method, called: Science is Ethics as Electics.) The basic principle, that thermodynamics and election method have in common is conservation, either of energy or information. (I believe scientists are currently translating energy terms into information terms.) Common-place teachings of social choice theory, including the American Mathematics Society, usually make the claim that there is no perfect voting system. The equivalent statement in thermodynamics is that there is no perpetual motion machine. As you point out, that does not preclude voting methods of different efficiency, the equivalent of heat engines of differing efficiency. The engines depend on efficient transfer of surplus heat, to work requirements, to keep the engine going. Similarly, transfers of vote surpluses, to elective quotas, keep the count procedure going. Heat forms a random distribution of motion. And votes typically form a random distribution of choice (subject to left or right skews). Binomial STV would perhaps be rather more efficient than traditional STV, because it rationally conserves exclusion information. In rough analogy, a binomial STV “heat engine” is better “insulated,” to conserve heat. Thermodynamics is not just a dynamic of heat but also its insulation, in a closed system. Likewise, an election method is not just an active election, but also a closed system of exclusion. Regards, Richard Lung. ---- Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list info

https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.03674 https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.04228 These papers may be interesting regarding this discussion. On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 1:13 AM robert bristow-johnson < rbj@audioimagination.com> wrote: > Like in audio data compression, I know the difference between lossy and > lossless compression . I sorta understand where the bits get allocated for > the audio spectrum. Like where it's appropriate to accurately represent > the raw data and where we can fudge it a little. > > I don't know how to do that for voter data without making assumptions or > postulates of the data. > > > > > > *Powered by Cricket Wireless* > > ------ Original message------ > *From: *Carl Schroedl > *Date: *Sun, Jun 5, 2022 1:16 PM > *To: *robert bristow-johnson; > *Cc: *Forest Simmons;Richard Lung;EM; > *Subject:*Re: [EM] Thermodynamics > > As a software guy, the connection I make is to something I have wondered > for a while -- whether it is useful to study social choice functions as > lossy compression algorithms. I haven't thought it through, but it could be > interesting to see if the rate-distortion branch of information theory > would apply. > > On Sat, Jun 4, 2022, 9:09 PM robert bristow-johnson < > rbj@audioimagination.com> wrote: > >> Being an electrical engineer that was ABD for a PhD in communications >> systems and signal processing, I have a little trouble seeing the >> connection to Shannon Information Theory. Either in the measure of >> information content of a message or set of messages or of the definition of >> entropy or of the capacity of a channel to carry information. >> >> So could someone make the connection for me? >> >> I get that set of ordinal ballot data is discrete information and >> there's some way, such as Huffman coding, to represent that information in >> the most compact and essential way possible. >> >> But I don't see the connection to social choice theory. Can someone help? >> >> robert >> >> *Powered by Cric ket Wireless* >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Forest Simmons >> *Date: *Sat, Jun 4, 2022 4:06 PM >> *To: *Richard Lung; >> *Cc: *EM; >> *Subject:*Re: [EM] Thermodynamics >> >> True! >> >> Do an internet search of "information mechanics" to confirm the validity >> of this tight connection. >> >> Information mechanics seems to be the key for the "unified field theory" >> Einstein was looking for ... and more ... unification of classical and >> quantum fields for all of the forces ... strong, weak, and intermediate... >> if not a "theory of everything." >> >> El sáb., 4 de jun. de 2022 6:26 a. m., Richard Lung < >> voting@ukscientists.com> escribió: >> >>> >>> Forest, >>> >>> >>> >>> The efficiency of heat engines, in thermodynamics, offer an analogy with >>> voting methods. Many other sciences do so, if voting method follows the >>> Stevens structure of measurement, held in common by other branches of >>> science. (I published a free e-book, about scientific models of election >>> method, called: Science is Ethics as Electics.) >>> >>> The basic principle, that thermodynamics and election method have in >>> common is conservation, either of energy or information. (I believe >>> scientists are currently translating energy terms into information terms.) >>> >>> Common-place teachings of social choice theory, including the American >>> Mathematics Society, usually make the claim that there is no perfect voting >>> system. The equivalent statement in thermodynamics is that there is no >>> perpetual motion machine. >>> >>> As you point out, that does not preclude voting methods of different >>> efficiency, the equivalent of heat engines of differing efficiency. The >>> engines depend on efficient transfer of surplus heat, to work requirements, >>> to keep the engine going. Similarly, transfers of vote surpluses, to >>> elective quotas, keep the count procedure going. Heat forms a random >>> distribution of motion. And votes typically form a random distribution of >>> choice (subject to left or right skews). >>> >>> Binomial STV would perhaps be rather more efficient than traditional >>> STV, because it rationally conserves exclusion information. In rough >>> analogy, a binomial STV “heat engine” is better “insulated,” to conserve >>> heat. Thermodynamics is not just a dynamic of heat but also its insulation, >>> in a closed system. Likewise, an election method is not just an active >>> election, but also a closed system of exclusion. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Richard Lung. >>> >>> >>> ---- >> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >> info >> > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list > info >

Very interesting in this context and other aspects of voting! Thanks for the valuable references! El lun., 6 de jun. de 2022 9:06 a. m., Andy Dienes <andydienes@gmail.com> escribió: > https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.03674 > https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.04228 > > These papers may be interesting regarding this discussion. > > On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 1:13 AM robert bristow-johnson < > rbj@audioimagination.com> wrote: > >> Like in audio data compression, I know the difference between lossy and >> lossless compression . I sorta understand where the bits get allocated for >> the audio spectrum. Like where it's appropriate to accurately represent >> the raw data and where we can fudge it a little. >> >> I don't know how to do that for voter data without making assumptions or >> postulates of the data. >> >> >> >> >> >> *Powered by Cricket Wireless* >> >> ------ Original message------ >> *From: *Carl Schroedl >> *Date: *Sun, Jun 5, 2022 1:16 PM >> *To: *robert bristow-johnson; >> *Cc: *Forest Simmons;Richard Lung;EM; >> *Subject:*Re: [EM] Thermodynamics >> >> As a software guy, the connection I make is to something I have wondered >> for a while -- whether it is useful to study social choice functions as >> lossy compression algorithms. I haven't thought it through, but it could be >> interesting to see if the rate-distortion branch of information theory >> would apply. >> >> On Sat, Jun 4, 2022, 9:09 PM robert bristow-johnson < >> rbj@audioimagination.com> wrote: >> >>> Being an electrical engineer that was ABD for a PhD in communications >>> systems and signal processing, I have a little trouble seeing the >>> connection to Shannon Information Theory. Either in the measure of >>> information content of a message or set of messages or of the definition of >>> entropy or of the capacity of a channel to carry information. >>> >>> So could someone make the connection for me? >>> >>> I get that set of ordinal ballot data is discrete information and >>> there's some way, such as Huffman coding, to represent that information in >>> the most compact and essential way possible. >>> >>> But I don't see the connection to social choice theory. Can someone >>> help? >>> >>> robert >>> >>> *Powered by Cric ket Wireless* >>> >>> ------ Original message------ >>> *From: *Forest Simmons >>> *Date: *Sat, Jun 4, 2022 4:06 PM >>> *To: *Richard Lung; >>> *Cc: *EM; >>> *Subject:*Re: [EM] Thermodynamics >>> >>> True! >>> >>> Do an internet search of "information mechanics" to confirm the validity >>> of this tight connection. >>> >>> Information mechanics seems to be the key for the "unified field theory" >>> Einstein was looking for ... and more ... unification of classical and >>> quantum fields for all of the forces ... strong, weak, and intermediate... >>> if not a "theory of everything." >>> >>> El sáb., 4 de jun. de 2022 6:26 a. m., Richard Lung < >>> voting@ukscientists.com> escribió: >>> >>>> >>>> Forest, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The efficiency of heat engines, in thermodynamics, offer an analogy >>>> with voting methods. Many other sciences do so, if voting method follows >>>> the Stevens structure of measurement, held in common by other branches of >>>> science. (I published a free e-book, about scientific models of election >>>> method, called: Science is Ethics as Electics.) >>>> >>>> The basic principle, that thermodynamics and election method have in >>>> common is conservation, either of energy or information. (I believe >>>> scientists are currently translating energy terms into information terms.) >>>> >>>> Common-place teachings of social choice theory, including the American >>>> Mathematics Society, usually make the claim that there is no perfect voting >>>> system. The equivalent statement in thermodynamics is that there is no >>>> perpetual motion machine. >>>> >>>> As you point out, that does not preclude voting methods of different >>>> efficiency, the equivalent of heat engines of differing efficiency. The >>>> engines depend on efficient transfer of surplus heat, to work requirements, >>>> to keep the engine going. Similarly, transfers of vote surpluses, to >>>> elective quotas, keep the count procedure going. Heat forms a random >>>> distribution of motion. And votes typically form a random distribution of >>>> choice (subject to left or right skews). >>>> >>>> Binomial STV would perhaps be rather more efficient than traditional >>>> STV, because it rationally conserves exclusion information. In rough >>>> analogy, a binomial STV “heat engine” is better “insulated,” to conserve >>>> heat. Thermodynamics is not just a dynamic of heat but also its insulation, >>>> in a closed system. Likewise, an election method is not just an active >>>> election, but also a closed system of exclusion. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Richard Lung. >>>> >>>> >>>> ---- >>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >>> info >>> >> ---- >> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >> info >> > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list > info >