Poll on voting-systems, to inform voters in upcoming enactment-elections
EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose
one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two
states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to know
how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits of
some voting-systems.
So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the experience
of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll do—& are
therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I now
propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
The voting-method for the poll:
It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system, among
the people at EM.
…& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite
voting-system, Approval won.
Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.
I prefer RP(wv) to Beatpath, mostly for its simple, intuitively natural &
obvious rule, but also for its LIIAC compliance, & the fact that its winner
usually pairbeats Schulze’s winner.
But I guess Schulze is more popular due to its more efficient algorithm.
Anyway so I suggest that the poll I propose have a Schulze balloting &
count, & an Approval balloting & count.
Voting would consist of posting a ranking & an approval-set, in one post.
Candidate voting-systems:
My purpose isn’t an all-inclusive poll among all proposed voting-systems.
…just a very few ones that are the most popular here at EM, solely to have
a little comparison to the main voting system being publicly voted on this
year.
So it should just be among a few voting-systems. Additionally, no reason to
make the alternatives-lineup too time-consumingly large by including
methods unlikely to win anyway.
I’ll suggest a few obvious inclusions. But, of course every poll here
should have the possibility of nomination of whatever alternative anyone
wants to nominate.
I’ll list my nominations in this post, & I claim that those few are all the
alternatives needed for the poll. …& anyone can nominate anything during a
1-week nomination-period.
I suggest the following voting-systems as candidates in the poll, the
alternatives among which to vote:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
IRV
(Schulze & RP are often said to be the ranked-methods most popular among
single-winner reform community, & that seems true at EM.)
Is there any need for more alternatives than that?
I suggest a nomination period of exactly one week, starting at the time
recorded as the posting-time-&-date of this post.
After which a voting-period of exactly one month would start…at the exact
time as the end of the nomination-period.
If there are no nominations (I suggest that none are needed) during the
nomination-period—& if, during the nomination-period, no one posts the
words “I second the suggestion of a poll”—then of course there’d not be a
poll.
Again, I realize that polls are no longer popular here, but this is a
special situation, bringing a need for voters in the upcoming public
enactment-election to have a chance to hear how people at EM feel about
relative merit among voting-systems. So let’s make an exception to the
absence of polls here, for voters in the next election.
Given the purpose of the poll, I think FPTP should also be included, since that's what the real world propositions are presumably to replace.
John Whelan
jtw24@cornell.edu
From: Election-Methods election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com on behalf of Michael Ossipoff email9648742@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2024 1:13:28 AM
To: EM list election-methods@electorama.com
Subject: [EM] Poll on voting-systems, to inform voters in upcoming enactment-elections
EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to know how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits of some voting-systems.
So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the experience of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll do—& are therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I now propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re about to vote on the enactment of.
The voting-method for the poll:
It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system, among the people at EM.
…& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite voting-system, Approval won.
Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.
I prefer RP(wv) to Beatpath, mostly for its simple, intuitively natural & obvious rule, but also for its LIIAC compliance, & the fact that its winner usually pairbeats Schulze’s winner.
But I guess Schulze is more popular due to its more efficient algorithm.
Anyway so I suggest that the poll I propose have a Schulze balloting & count, & an Approval balloting & count.
Voting would consist of posting a ranking & an approval-set, in one post.
Candidate voting-systems:
My purpose isn’t an all-inclusive poll among all proposed voting-systems. …just a very few ones that are the most popular here at EM, solely to have a little comparison to the main voting system being publicly voted on this year.
So it should just be among a few voting-systems. Additionally, no reason to make the alternatives-lineup too time-consumingly large by including methods unlikely to win anyway.
I’ll suggest a few obvious inclusions. But, of course every poll here should have the possibility of nomination of whatever alternative anyone wants to nominate.
I’ll list my nominations in this post, & I claim that those few are all the alternatives needed for the poll. …& anyone can nominate anything during a 1-week nomination-period.
I suggest the following voting-systems as candidates in the poll, the alternatives among which to vote:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
IRV
(Schulze & RP are often said to be the ranked-methods most popular among single-winner reform community, & that seems true at EM.)
Is there any need for more alternatives than that?
I suggest a nomination period of exactly one week, starting at the time recorded as the posting-time-&-date of this post.
After which a voting-period of exactly one month would start…at the exact time as the end of the nomination-period.
If there are no nominations (I suggest that none are needed) during the nomination-period—& if, during the nomination-period, no one posts the words “I second the suggestion of a poll”—then of course there’d not be a poll.
Again, I realize that polls are no longer popular here, but this is a special situation, bringing a need for voters in the upcoming public enactment-election to have a chance to hear how people at EM feel about relative merit among voting-systems. So let’s make an exception to the absence of polls here, for voters in the next election.
Reading this, my question was: what's the specific question we'd be answering?
In almost any real world application (i.e., anything other than an audience with a very strong math or programming background) I'd personally favor Approval over Schulze. From a pure theoretical standpoint, though, I'd put them in the opposite order.
On 4/4/24 01:13, Michael Ossipoff wrote:
EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose
one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two
states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to know
how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits of
some voting-systems.
So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the experience
of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll do—& are
therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I now
propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
The voting-method for the poll:
It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system, among
the people at EM.
…& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite
voting-system, Approval won.
Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.
I prefer RP(wv) to Beatpath, mostly for its simple, intuitively natural &
obvious rule, but also for its LIIAC compliance, & the fact that its winner
usually pairbeats Schulze’s winner.
But I guess Schulze is more popular due to its more efficient algorithm.
Anyway so I suggest that the poll I propose have a Schulze balloting &
count, & an Approval balloting & count.
Voting would consist of posting a ranking & an approval-set, in one post.
Candidate voting-systems:
My purpose isn’t an all-inclusive poll among all proposed voting-systems.
…just a very few ones that are the most popular here at EM, solely to have
a little comparison to the main voting system being publicly voted on this
year.
So it should just be among a few voting-systems. Additionally, no reason to
make the alternatives-lineup too time-consumingly large by including
methods unlikely to win anyway.
I’ll suggest a few obvious inclusions. But, of course every poll here
should have the possibility of nomination of whatever alternative anyone
wants to nominate.
I’ll list my nominations in this post, & I claim that those few are all the
alternatives needed for the poll. …& anyone can nominate anything during a
1-week nomination-period.
I suggest the following voting-systems as candidates in the poll, the
alternatives among which to vote:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
IRV
(Schulze & RP are often said to be the ranked-methods most popular among
single-winner reform community, & that seems true at EM.)
Is there any need for more alternatives than that?
I suggest a nomination period of exactly one week, starting at the time
recorded as the posting-time-&-date of this post.
After which a voting-period of exactly one month would start…at the exact
time as the end of the nomination-period.
If there are no nominations (I suggest that none are needed) during the
nomination-period—& if, during the nomination-period, no one posts the
words “I second the suggestion of a poll”—then of course there’d not be a
poll.
Again, I realize that polls are no longer popular here, but this is a
special situation, bringing a need for voters in the upcoming public
enactment-election to have a chance to hear how people at EM feel about
relative merit among voting-systems. So let’s make an exception to the
absence of polls here, for voters in the next election.
Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list info
Considering the options those voters will have on their ballots will be IRV
and FPP, it makes far more sense to just poll those two.
On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 7:13 AM Michael Ossipoff email9648742@gmail.com
wrote:
EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose
one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two
states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to know
how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits of
some voting-systems.
So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the
experience of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll
do—& are therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I
now propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
The voting-method for the poll:
It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system,
among the people at EM.
…& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite
voting-system, Approval won.
Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.
I prefer RP(wv) to Beatpath, mostly for its simple, intuitively natural &
obvious rule, but also for its LIIAC compliance, & the fact that its winner
usually pairbeats Schulze’s winner.
But I guess Schulze is more popular due to its more efficient algorithm.
Anyway so I suggest that the poll I propose have a Schulze balloting &
count, & an Approval balloting & count.
Voting would consist of posting a ranking & an approval-set, in one post.
Candidate voting-systems:
My purpose isn’t an all-inclusive poll among all proposed voting-systems.
…just a very few ones that are the most popular here at EM, solely to have
a little comparison to the main voting system being publicly voted on this
year.
So it should just be among a few voting-systems. Additionally, no reason
to make the alternatives-lineup too time-consumingly large by including
methods unlikely to win anyway.
I’ll suggest a few obvious inclusions. But, of course every poll here
should have the possibility of nomination of whatever alternative anyone
wants to nominate.
I’ll list my nominations in this post, & I claim that those few are all
the alternatives needed for the poll. …& anyone can nominate anything
during a 1-week nomination-period.
I suggest the following voting-systems as candidates in the poll, the
alternatives among which to vote:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
IRV
(Schulze & RP are often said to be the ranked-methods most popular among
single-winner reform community, & that seems true at EM.)
Is there any need for more alternatives than that?
I suggest a nomination period of exactly one week, starting at the time
recorded as the posting-time-&-date of this post.
After which a voting-period of exactly one month would start…at the exact
time as the end of the nomination-period.
If there are no nominations (I suggest that none are needed) during the
nomination-period—& if, during the nomination-period, no one posts the
words “I second the suggestion of a poll”—then of course there’d not be a
poll.
Again, I realize that polls are no longer popular here, but this is a
special situation, bringing a need for voters in the upcoming public
enactment-election to have a chance to hear how people at EM feel about
relative merit among voting-systems. So let’s make an exception to the
absence of polls here, for voters in the next election.
Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
info
Yes, that’s true. It’s the reason why reform is needed, & the reforms
should be compared to the worse current alternatives to show the need.
I nominate:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
MinMax(wv)
IRV
Plurality
On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 04:06 John T Whelan john.whelan@astro.rit.edu
wrote:
Given the purpose of the poll, I think FPTP should also be included, since
that's what the real world propositions are presumably to replace.
John Whelan
jtw24@cornell.edu
From: Election-Methods election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com
on behalf of Michael Ossipoff email9648742@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2024 1:13:28 AM
To: EM list election-methods@electorama.com
Subject: [EM] Poll on voting-systems, to inform voters in upcoming
enactment-elections
EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose
one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two
states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to know
how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits of
some voting-systems.
So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the
experience of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll
do—& are therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I
now propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
The voting-method for the poll:
It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system,
among the people at EM.
…& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite
voting-system, Approval won.
Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.
I prefer RP(wv) to Beatpath, mostly for its simple, intuitively natural &
obvious rule, but also for its LIIAC compliance, & the fact that its winner
usually pairbeats Schulze’s winner.
But I guess Schulze is more popular due to its more efficient algorithm.
Anyway so I suggest that the poll I propose have a Schulze balloting &
count, & an Approval balloting & count.
Voting would consist of posting a ranking & an approval-set, in one post.
Candidate voting-systems:
My purpose isn’t an all-inclusive poll among all proposed voting-systems.
…just a very few ones that are the most popular here at EM, solely to have
a little comparison to the main voting system being publicly voted on this
year.
So it should just be among a few voting-systems. Additionally, no reason
to make the alternatives-lineup too time-consumingly large by including
methods unlikely to win anyway.
I’ll suggest a few obvious inclusions. But, of course every poll here
should have the possibility of nomination of whatever alternative anyone
wants to nominate.
I’ll list my nominations in this post, & I claim that those few are all
the alternatives needed for the poll. …& anyone can nominate anything
during a 1-week nomination-period.
I suggest the following voting-systems as candidates in the poll, the
alternatives among which to vote:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
IRV
(Schulze & RP are often said to be the ranked-methods most popular among
single-winner reform community, & that seems true at EM.)
Is there any need for more alternatives than that?
I suggest a nomination period of exactly one week, starting at the time
recorded as the posting-time-&-date of this post.
After which a voting-period of exactly one month would start…at the exact
time as the end of the nomination-period.
If there are no nominations (I suggest that none are needed) during the
nomination-period—& if, during the nomination-period, no one posts the
words “I second the suggestion of a poll”—then of course there’d not be a
poll.
Again, I realize that polls are no longer popular here, but this is a
special situation, bringing a need for voters in the upcoming public
enactment-election to have a chance to hear how people at EM feel about
relative merit among voting-systems. So let’s make an exception to the
absence of polls here, for voters in the next election.
On 04/04/2024 2:11 PM EDT Michael Garman michael.garman@rankthevote.us wrote:
Considering the options those voters will have on their ballots will be IRV and FPP, it makes far more sense to just poll those two.
Oh dear. Two choices. We have to choose between Dumb and Dumber. We have to choose between Giant Douche and Turd Sandwich.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7pfsneLSSM
Isn't that what RCV (or other reforms) are supposed to do for us? Give us more than two choices? Isn't there a third way? Or a fourth way?
--
r b-j . _ . _ . _ . _ rbj@audioimagination.com
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
.
.
.
Of course, these aren’t the only two options! But almost no voter is going
to pay any attention to a poll where almost all the options aren’t on their
ballot. It’s like those ridiculous presidential polls that put Michelle
Obama in there.
On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 8:33 PM robert bristow-johnson <
rbj@audioimagination.com> wrote:
On 04/04/2024 2:11 PM EDT Michael Garman michael.garman@rankthevote.us
wrote:
Considering the options those voters will have on their ballots will be
IRV and FPP, it makes far more sense to just poll those two.
Oh dear. Two choices. We have to choose between Dumb and Dumber. We
have to choose between Giant Douche and Turd Sandwich.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7pfsneLSSM
Isn't that what RCV (or other reforms) are supposed to do for us? Give us
more than two choices? Isn't there a third way? Or a fourth way?
--
r b-j . _ . _ . _ . _ rbj@audioimagination.com
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
.
.
.
Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
info
Actually, that was your nomination of course, but I just meant that I agree
with it.
On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 11:23 Michael Ossipoff email9648742@gmail.com
wrote:
Yes, that’s true. It’s the reason why reform is needed, & the reforms
should be compared to the worse current alternatives to show the need.
I nominate:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
MinMax(wv)
IRV
Plurality
On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 04:06 John T Whelan john.whelan@astro.rit.edu
wrote:
Given the purpose of the poll, I think FPTP should also be included,
since that's what the real world propositions are presumably to replace.
John Whelan
jtw24@cornell.edu
From: Election-Methods election-methods-bounces@lists.electorama.com
on behalf of Michael Ossipoff email9648742@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2024 1:13:28 AM
To: EM list election-methods@electorama.com
Subject: [EM] Poll on voting-systems, to inform voters in upcoming
enactment-elections
EM used to do a lot of polls, but now never does. So I wouldn’t propose
one, if it weren’t for the fact that, this year, the voters of at least two
states are going to vote on whether to enact a certain voting-system.
It seems to me—tell me if I’m wrong—that those people have a right to
know how people familiar with voting-systems feel about the relative merits
of some voting-systems.
So, though I claim that polls are valuable for demonstrating the
experience of using the voting systems, & how they work, & what they’ll
do—& are therefore useful & worthwhile for their own sake—this poll that I
now propose isn’t a poll for its own sake.
It is, as I said, proposed for the important practical purpose of letting
the voters in the upcoming enactment-elections know how we feel about the
relative merits of some voting-systems, including the one that they’re
about to vote on the enactment of.
The voting-method for the poll:
It seems to me that Schulze is the most popular ranked voting-system,
among the people at EM.
…& it seems to me that the last time we voted on EM’s collective favorite
voting-system, Approval won.
Those seem the top-two, in EM popularity.
I prefer RP(wv) to Beatpath, mostly for its simple, intuitively natural &
obvious rule, but also for its LIIAC compliance, & the fact that its winner
usually pairbeats Schulze’s winner.
But I guess Schulze is more popular due to its more efficient algorithm.
Anyway so I suggest that the poll I propose have a Schulze balloting &
count, & an Approval balloting & count.
Voting would consist of posting a ranking & an approval-set, in one post.
Candidate voting-systems:
My purpose isn’t an all-inclusive poll among all proposed voting-systems.
…just a very few ones that are the most popular here at EM, solely to have
a little comparison to the main voting system being publicly voted on this
year.
So it should just be among a few voting-systems. Additionally, no reason
to make the alternatives-lineup too time-consumingly large by including
methods unlikely to win anyway.
I’ll suggest a few obvious inclusions. But, of course every poll here
should have the possibility of nomination of whatever alternative anyone
wants to nominate.
I’ll list my nominations in this post, & I claim that those few are all
the alternatives needed for the poll. …& anyone can nominate anything
during a 1-week nomination-period.
I suggest the following voting-systems as candidates in the poll, the
alternatives among which to vote:
Approval
RP(wv)
Schulze
IRV
(Schulze & RP are often said to be the ranked-methods most popular among
single-winner reform community, & that seems true at EM.)
Is there any need for more alternatives than that?
I suggest a nomination period of exactly one week, starting at the time
recorded as the posting-time-&-date of this post.
After which a voting-period of exactly one month would start…at the exact
time as the end of the nomination-period.
If there are no nominations (I suggest that none are needed) during the
nomination-period—& if, during the nomination-period, no one posts the
words “I second the suggestion of a poll”—then of course there’d not be a
poll.
Again, I realize that polls are no longer popular here, but this is a
special situation, bringing a need for voters in the upcoming public
enactment-election to have a chance to hear how people at EM feel about
relative merit among voting-systems. So let’s make an exception to the
absence of polls here, for voters in the next election.
I find Black's Method (If there is no Condorcet winner use Borda) appealing especially when voters must rank all choices without ties or truncations using an ordinal ballot.
I also find Baldwin's method (sequential run-off based on Borda Count) appealing.
Borda- points for choice i, is the number choices below i.
Best,
Joe
——————————————
Joseph Malkevitch
Email:
jmalkevitch@york.cuny.edu
Web page:
http://york.cuny.edu/~malk/
Acknowledging the nomination of Black & Baldwin.
On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 14:02 Joseph Malkevitch jmalkevitch@york.cuny.edu
wrote:
I find Black's Method (If there is no Condorcet winner use Borda)
appealing especially when voters must rank all choices without ties or
truncations using an ordinal ballot.
I also find Baldwin's method (sequential run-off based on Borda Count)
appealing.
Borda- points for choice i, is the number choices below i.
Best,
Joe
——————————————
Joseph Malkevitch
Email:
jmalkevitch@york.cuny.edu
Web page:
http://york.cuny.edu/~malk/