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Re: [EM] Best Single-Winner Method

SB
steve bosworth
Mon, May 20, 2019 7:46 PM

Re: Best Single- Winner Method

Sennet Williams,  Forest Simmons, Robert Bristow-Johnson, Abd dul Raman Lomax, and Chris Benham have recently addressed each others’ claims about IRV, 3-slot Methods, IBIFA, and Asset.  This discussion prompts me to request some help later after I have clarified several issues.

Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming that  we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method:

  1. To be simple enough so voters  can both use it and understand how it is counted;
  2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below),  and
  3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute majority) of all the citizens voting, and
  4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical.

Given these desires, currently I see Majority Judgment (MJ) as superior to all of the above methods on each of these counts.  However, since the above discussions have not mentioned MJ, I assume that many contributors would reject this claim for MJ.  This is why I would very much appreciate receiving any of your clarifications or explanations of how my claim for MJ cannot be sustained.  What important flaws to you see in MJ?

To help you to marshal your criticisms of MJ, please let me explain more full my own understandings and reasons for favoring MJ.  Firstly, I see a citizen’s vote as being wasted quantitatively to the degree that it fails equally to help one of their most trusted candidates to win.  A citizen’s vote is wasted qualitatively to the degree that it instead helps to elect a candidate whom they judge less fit for office, rather than an available candidate judged to be more fit.

Other than in MJ, such waste is present in all the existing methods, whether they ask voters to rank, score, or approve as many of the candidates as they might wish.  Of course, most dramatic is the waste provided by plurality or First-Past-The-Post voting.

To counter qualitative waste, Balinski and Laraki (Majority Judgment, 2010 MIT) argue that our capacity for judging qualities of human behavior can be most meaningfully expressed in an election by each voter grading each candidate’s suitability for office as either Excellent (ideal), Very Good, Good, Acceptable, Poor, or “Reject” (entirely unsuitable).  These grades are more discerning, meaningful, and informative than merely expressing preferences or using numeric scores[MOU1] , X’s or ticks.  Such grading makes it more likely that the highest quality candidate will be elected in the eyes of the electorate.

Each candidate who is not explicitly graded is counted as ”Reject” by that voter.  As a result, all the candidates will receiv the same number of evaluations, but a different set of grades from the voters.  The Majority Judgment (MJ) winner is the one who has received grades from an absolute majority of all the voters that are equal to, or higher than, the highest median-grade given to any candidate. This median-grade is found as follows:

  • Place all the grades, high to low, top to bottom, in side-by-side columns, the name of each candidate at the top of each of these columns.
  • The median-grade for each candidate is the grade located half way down each column, i.e. in the middle if there is an odd number of voters, the lower middle if the number is even.

If more than one candidate has the same highest median-grade, the MJ winner is discovered by removing (one-by-one) any grades equal in value to the current highest median grade from each tied candidate’s total until only one of the previously tied candidates currently has the highest remaining median-grade.

Also, in contrast to the alternatives, Balinski  explains how MJ reduces by almost half, both the incentives and opportunities for effective tactical voting.  Thus, each voter has every appropriate incentive, not only to vote but to reveal their honest evaluations of each candidate.

Thus, to me, using MJ should be simpler and more satisfying because grading many candidates is both easier and more meaningful than ranking or scoring them.  Also, finding and comparing the median-grades of all the candidate is quite simple.  Unlike MJ, IRV, Condorcet methods, and Scoring do not guarantee the election of the candidate most preferred by at least 50% plus one of all the citizens voting.  Unlike IRV but like Condorcet methods and Score, MJ does not eliminate any candidate until the winner is discovered.

Finally, I would favor the following Asset option to be added at the bottom of each MJ ballot:  Any citizen who currently feels that they do not yet know enough about any of the candidates to grade them, can instead give their proxy vote to the Register Elector who will do this for them.  They could do this  by WRITING-IN the published code of that Registered Elector.

I look forward to your comments.

Steve


[MOU1]Numerical scores

Re: Best Single- Winner Method Sennet Williams, Forest Simmons, Robert Bristow-Johnson, Abd dul Raman Lomax, and Chris Benham have recently addressed each others’ claims about IRV, 3-slot Methods, IBIFA, and Asset. This discussion prompts me to request some help later after I have clarified several issues. Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming that we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method: 1. To be simple enough so voters can both use it and understand how it is counted; 2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below), and 3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute majority) of all the citizens voting, and 4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical. Given these desires, currently I see Majority Judgment (MJ) as superior to all of the above methods on each of these counts. However, since the above discussions have not mentioned MJ, I assume that many contributors would reject this claim for MJ. This is why I would very much appreciate receiving any of your clarifications or explanations of how my claim for MJ cannot be sustained. What important flaws to you see in MJ? To help you to marshal your criticisms of MJ, please let me explain more full my own understandings and reasons for favoring MJ. Firstly, I see a citizen’s vote as being wasted quantitatively to the degree that it fails equally to help one of their most trusted candidates to win. A citizen’s vote is wasted qualitatively to the degree that it instead helps to elect a candidate whom they judge less fit for office, rather than an available candidate judged to be more fit. Other than in MJ, such waste is present in all the existing methods, whether they ask voters to rank, score, or approve as many of the candidates as they might wish. Of course, most dramatic is the waste provided by plurality or First-Past-The-Post voting. To counter qualitative waste, Balinski and Laraki (Majority Judgment, 2010 MIT) argue that our capacity for judging qualities of human behavior can be most meaningfully expressed in an election by each voter grading each candidate’s suitability for office as either Excellent (ideal), Very Good, Good, Acceptable, Poor, or “Reject” (entirely unsuitable). These grades are more discerning, meaningful, and informative than merely expressing preferences or using numeric scores[MOU1] , X’s or ticks. Such grading makes it more likely that the highest quality candidate will be elected in the eyes of the electorate. Each candidate who is not explicitly graded is counted as ”Reject” by that voter. As a result, all the candidates will receiv the same number of evaluations, but a different set of grades from the voters. The Majority Judgment (MJ) winner is the one who has received grades from an absolute majority of all the voters that are equal to, or higher than, the highest median-grade given to any candidate. This median-grade is found as follows: * Place all the grades, high to low, top to bottom, in side-by-side columns, the name of each candidate at the top of each of these columns. * The median-grade for each candidate is the grade located half way down each column, i.e. in the middle if there is an odd number of voters, the lower middle if the number is even. If more than one candidate has the same highest median-grade, the MJ winner is discovered by removing (one-by-one) any grades equal in value to the current highest median grade from each tied candidate’s total until only one of the previously tied candidates currently has the highest remaining median-grade. Also, in contrast to the alternatives, Balinski explains how MJ reduces by almost half, both the incentives and opportunities for effective tactical voting. Thus, each voter has every appropriate incentive, not only to vote but to reveal their honest evaluations of each candidate. Thus, to me, using MJ should be simpler and more satisfying because grading many candidates is both easier and more meaningful than ranking or scoring them. Also, finding and comparing the median-grades of all the candidate is quite simple. Unlike MJ, IRV, Condorcet methods, and Scoring do not guarantee the election of the candidate most preferred by at least 50% plus one of all the citizens voting. Unlike IRV but like Condorcet methods and Score, MJ does not eliminate any candidate until the winner is discovered. Finally, I would favor the following Asset option to be added at the bottom of each MJ ballot: Any citizen who currently feels that they do not yet know enough about any of the candidates to grade them, can instead give their proxy vote to the Register Elector who will do this for them. They could do this by WRITING-IN the published code of that Registered Elector. I look forward to your comments. Steve ________________________________ [MOU1]Numerical scores
RB
robert bristow-johnson
Mon, May 20, 2019 8:21 PM

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------

Subject: Re: [EM] Best Single-Winner Method

From: "steve bosworth" stevebosworth@hotmail.com

Date: Mon, May 20, 2019 12:46 pm

To: "EM list" election-methods@electorama.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------Sennet Williams,  Forest Simmons, Robert Bristow-Johnson, Abd dul Raman Lomax, and Chris Benham have recently addressed each others’ claims about IRV, 3-slot Methods, IBIFA, and Asset.  This discussion prompts me to request some help later after I have clarified several issues. Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming that  we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner
Method:

		To be simple enough so voters  can both use it and understand how it is counted;
	
		To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below),  and
	
		To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute majority) of all the citizens voting, and
	
		To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical.

 

  1. Is this simple enough? :  Two principles: 

a) One-person-one-vote.  If I really really like my candidate more than your candidate and you only like your candidate a little more than you like my candidate, your vote for your candidate counts no less (nor more) than my vote for my candidate.

b) Majority rule.  If more voters express on their ballots that they prefer Candidate A over Candidate B than the number of voters marking their ballots to the contrary, then Candidate B is not elected.
2. Agree.  This is why we need Ranked-Choice Voting (but not necessarily
IRV).
3. That's an impossible outcome to guarantee in a 3+ way race.
4. Agree.  This is why I am opposed to FPTP or IRV (unless it's IRV-BTR) or Score Voting or Approval Voting for governmental elections.

--

r b-j                         rbj@audioimagination.com

"Imagination is more important than knowledge."

 
 
 
 

---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: [EM] Best Single-Winner Method From: "steve bosworth" <stevebosworth@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, May 20, 2019 12:46 pm To: "EM list" <election-methods@electorama.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------------Sennet Williams,  Forest Simmons, Robert Bristow-Johnson, Abd dul Raman Lomax, and Chris Benham have recently addressed each others’ claims about IRV, 3-slot Methods, IBIFA, and Asset.  This discussion prompts me to request some help later after I have clarified several issues. Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming that  we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method: To be simple enough so voters  can both use it and understand how it is counted; To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below),  and To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute majority) of all the citizens voting, and To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical.   1. Is this simple enough? :  Two principles:  a) One-person-one-vote.  If I really really like my candidate more than your candidate and you only like your candidate a little more than you like my candidate, your vote for your candidate counts no less (nor more) than my vote for my candidate. b) Majority rule.  If more voters express on their ballots that they prefer Candidate A over Candidate B than the number of voters marking their ballots to the contrary, then Candidate B is not elected. 2. Agree.  This is why we need Ranked-Choice Voting (but not necessarily IRV). 3. That's an impossible outcome to guarantee in a 3+ way race. 4. Agree.  This is why I am opposed to FPTP or IRV (unless it's IRV-BTR) or Score Voting or Approval Voting for governmental elections. -- r b-j                         rbj@audioimagination.com "Imagination is more important than knowledge."        
V
VoteFair
Tue, May 21, 2019 7:43 PM

On 5/20/2019 12:46 PM, steve bosworth wrote:

Re: Best Single- Winner Method
...
Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming
that  we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method:

  1. To be simple enough so voters  can both use it and understand how it
    is counted;
  2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below),  and
  3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the
    candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute
    majority) of all the citizens voting, and
  4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical.

I suggest that Instant Pairwise Elimination provides a great balance
among these requirements.

1: It's simple to use, and simple to understand how to count.

2: Rarely could a voter identify a situation where their vote was wasted.

3: It's not a Condorcet method, yet it would be very rare for it to
elect a non-Condorcet winner.

4: Tactical voting is possible, but only when a rock-paper-scissors
cycle is involved AND involves the most popular candidates.

As a reminder of Instant Pairwise Elimination, it's described here:

https://democracychronicles.org/instant-pairwise-elimination/

Richard Fobes

On 5/20/2019 12:46 PM, steve bosworth wrote: > Re: Best Single- Winner Method >... > Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming > that we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method: > > 1. To be simple enough so voters can both use it and understand how it > is counted; > 2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below), and > 3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the > candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute > majority) of all the citizens voting, and > 4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical. I suggest that Instant Pairwise Elimination provides a great balance among these requirements. 1: It's simple to use, and simple to understand how to count. 2: Rarely could a voter identify a situation where their vote was wasted. 3: It's not a Condorcet method, yet it would be very rare for it to elect a non-Condorcet winner. 4: Tactical voting is possible, but only when a rock-paper-scissors cycle is involved AND involves the most popular candidates. As a reminder of Instant Pairwise Elimination, it's described here: https://democracychronicles.org/instant-pairwise-elimination/ Richard Fobes
RL
Richard Lung
Tue, May 21, 2019 11:45 PM

By the way, folks, I think single vacancies are over-rated. They are a
hang-over of monarchism and have the standard defects of monopolies, in
this case on representation.
Barack Obama advised the President Elect that you cannot do everything
on your own. It is noticable that in a war emergency, the first thing
the leader does is surround himself with a cabinet of five.
Probably the President should just be the first among equals in a five
member council proportionally representing all four corners of the Republic.
The scientific success is thru informing discussion arriving at a
consensus, which is also the truly democratic way. Not dictatorial
ignorance of everyone elses contribution, encouraged by monopolistic
single vacancies.
From
Richard Lung.

On 21/05/2019 20:43, VoteFair wrote:

On 5/20/2019 12:46 PM, steve bosworth wrote:

Re: Best Single- Winner Method
...
Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming
that  we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method:

 1. To be simple enough so voters  can both use it and understand how it
    is counted;
 2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below),  and
 3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the
    candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute
    majority) of all the citizens voting, and
 4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical.

I suggest that Instant Pairwise Elimination provides a great balance
among these requirements.

1: It's simple to use, and simple to understand how to count.

2: Rarely could a voter identify a situation where their vote was wasted.

3: It's not a Condorcet method, yet it would be very rare for it to
elect a non-Condorcet winner.

4: Tactical voting is possible, but only when a rock-paper-scissors
cycle is involved AND involves the most popular candidates.

As a reminder of Instant Pairwise Elimination, it's described here:

https://democracychronicles.org/instant-pairwise-elimination/

Richard Fobes

Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
info

By the way, folks, I think single vacancies are over-rated. They are a hang-over of monarchism and have the standard defects of monopolies, in this case on representation. Barack Obama advised the President Elect that you cannot do everything on your own. It is noticable that in a war emergency, the first thing the leader does is surround himself with a cabinet of five. Probably the President should just be the first among equals in a five member council proportionally representing all four corners of the Republic. The scientific success is thru informing discussion arriving at a consensus, which is also the truly democratic way. Not dictatorial ignorance of everyone elses contribution, encouraged by monopolistic single vacancies. From Richard Lung. On 21/05/2019 20:43, VoteFair wrote: > On 5/20/2019 12:46 PM, steve bosworth wrote: >> Re: Best Single- Winner Method >> ... >> Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming >> that  we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method: >> >>  1. To be simple enough so voters  can both use it and understand how it >>     is counted; >>  2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below),  and >>  3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the >>     candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute >>     majority) of all the citizens voting, and >>  4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical. > > I suggest that Instant Pairwise Elimination provides a great balance > among these requirements. > > 1: It's simple to use, and simple to understand how to count. > > 2: Rarely could a voter identify a situation where their vote was wasted. > > 3: It's not a Condorcet method, yet it would be very rare for it to > elect a non-Condorcet winner. > > 4: Tactical voting is possible, but only when a rock-paper-scissors > cycle is involved AND involves the most popular candidates. > > As a reminder of Instant Pairwise Elimination, it's described here: > > https://democracychronicles.org/instant-pairwise-elimination/ > > Richard Fobes > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list > info >
C
C.Benham
Wed, May 22, 2019 5:45 AM

Richard,

Can you please explain, perhaps with an example, how your "Instant
Pairwise Elimination"
method can possibly "elect a non-Condorcet winner"?

As I understand it, the method eliminates all the non-members of the
Smith set, and then if
more than one candidate remains, next eliminates the candidate who
(among remaining candidates)
is lowest ranked on the highest number of ballots, and then repeats both
steps until one candidate
remains.

Is that right?

From the page you linked to:

To appreciate how easy it is to understand, here’s a full description
of the IPE method:

Voters rank the candidates using as many ranking levels as there are
candidates, or at least 5 ranking levels if ovals are marked on a
paper ballot and space is limited and lots of the candidates are
unlikely to win. During counting, each elimination round eliminates
the candidate who loses every pairwise contest against every other
remaining candidate. If an elimination round has no pairwise-losing
candidate then, for that round, each ballot gives one count to the
lowest-ranked remaining candidate on that ballot, and the candidate
with the highest such count is eliminated. The last remaining
candidate wins.

Chris Benham

On 22/05/2019 5:13 am, VoteFair wrote:

On 5/20/2019 12:46 PM, steve bosworth wrote:

Re: Best Single- Winner Method
...
Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming
that  we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method:

 1. To be simple enough so voters  can both use it and understand how it
    is counted;
 2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below),  and
 3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the
    candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute
    majority) of all the citizens voting, and
 4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical.

I suggest that Instant Pairwise Elimination provides a great balance
among these requirements.

1: It's simple to use, and simple to understand how to count.

2: Rarely could a voter identify a situation where their vote was wasted.

3: It's not a Condorcet method, yet it would be very rare for it to
elect a non-Condorcet winner.

4: Tactical voting is possible, but only when a rock-paper-scissors
cycle is involved AND involves the most popular candidates.

As a reminder of Instant Pairwise Elimination, it's described here:

https://democracychronicles.org/instant-pairwise-elimination/

Richard Fobes

Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
info


This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Richard, Can you please explain, perhaps with an example, how your "Instant Pairwise Elimination" method can possibly "elect a non-Condorcet winner"? As I understand it, the method eliminates all the non-members of the Smith set, and then if more than one candidate remains, next eliminates the candidate who (among remaining candidates) is lowest ranked on the highest number of ballots, and then repeats both steps until one candidate remains. Is that right? From the page you linked to: > To appreciate how easy it is to understand, here’s a full description > of the IPE method: > > “*Voters rank the candidates using as many ranking levels as there are > candidates, or at least 5 ranking levels if ovals are marked on a > paper ballot and space is limited and lots of the candidates are > unlikely to win. During counting, each elimination round eliminates > the candidate who loses every pairwise contest against every other > remaining candidate. If an elimination round has no pairwise-losing > candidate then, for that round, each ballot gives one count to the > lowest-ranked remaining candidate on that ballot, and the candidate > with the highest such count is eliminated. The last remaining > candidate wins.*” > Chris Benham On 22/05/2019 5:13 am, VoteFair wrote: > On 5/20/2019 12:46 PM, steve bosworth wrote: >> Re: Best Single- Winner Method >> ... >> Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming >> that  we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method: >> >>  1. To be simple enough so voters  can both use it and understand how it >>     is counted; >>  2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below),  and >>  3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the >>     candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute >>     majority) of all the citizens voting, and >>  4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical. > > I suggest that Instant Pairwise Elimination provides a great balance > among these requirements. > > 1: It's simple to use, and simple to understand how to count. > > 2: Rarely could a voter identify a situation where their vote was wasted. > > 3: It's not a Condorcet method, yet it would be very rare for it to > elect a non-Condorcet winner. > > 4: Tactical voting is possible, but only when a rock-paper-scissors > cycle is involved AND involves the most popular candidates. > > As a reminder of Instant Pairwise Elimination, it's described here: > > https://democracychronicles.org/instant-pairwise-elimination/ > > Richard Fobes > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list > info --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com
C
C.Benham
Wed, May 22, 2019 8:28 AM

Richard,

To answer my own question, I suppose you could have a bottom cycle and a
CW who is ranked
bottom on the highest number of ballots.

That combination would be very very unlikely, but why allow it? Why not
use my version?

Chris Benham

On 22/05/2019 3:15 pm, C.Benham wrote:

Richard,

Can you please explain, perhaps with an example, how your "Instant
Pairwise Elimination"
method can possibly "elect a non-Condorcet winner"?

As I understand it, the method eliminates all the non-members of the
Smith set, and then if
more than one candidate remains, next eliminates the candidate who
(among remaining candidates)
is lowest ranked on the highest number of ballots, and then repeats
both steps until one candidate
remains.

Is that right?

From the page you linked to:

To appreciate how easy it is to understand, here’s a full description
of the IPE method:

Voters rank the candidates using as many ranking levels as there
are candidates, or at least 5 ranking levels if ovals are marked on a
paper ballot and space is limited and lots of the candidates are
unlikely to win. During counting, each elimination round eliminates
the candidate who loses every pairwise contest against every other
remaining candidate. If an elimination round has no pairwise-losing
candidate then, for that round, each ballot gives one count to the
lowest-ranked remaining candidate on that ballot, and the candidate
with the highest such count is eliminated. The last remaining
candidate wins.

Chris Benham

On 22/05/2019 5:13 am, VoteFair wrote:

On 5/20/2019 12:46 PM, steve bosworth wrote:

Re: Best Single- Winner Method
...
Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming
that  we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method:

 1. To be simple enough so voters  can both use it and understand
how it
    is counted;
 2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below), and
 3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the
    candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute
    majority) of all the citizens voting, and
 4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical.

I suggest that Instant Pairwise Elimination provides a great balance
among these requirements.

1: It's simple to use, and simple to understand how to count.

2: Rarely could a voter identify a situation where their vote was
wasted.

3: It's not a Condorcet method, yet it would be very rare for it to
elect a non-Condorcet winner.

4: Tactical voting is possible, but only when a rock-paper-scissors
cycle is involved AND involves the most popular candidates.

As a reminder of Instant Pairwise Elimination, it's described here:

https://democracychronicles.org/instant-pairwise-elimination/

Richard Fobes

Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for
list info


This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Richard, To answer my own question, I suppose you could have a bottom cycle and a CW who is ranked bottom on the highest number of ballots. That combination would be very very unlikely, but why allow it? Why not use my version? Chris Benham On 22/05/2019 3:15 pm, C.Benham wrote: > > Richard, > > Can you please explain, perhaps with an example, how your "Instant > Pairwise Elimination" > method can possibly "elect a non-Condorcet winner"? > > As I understand it, the method eliminates all the non-members of the > Smith set, and then if > more than one candidate remains, next eliminates the candidate who > (among remaining candidates) > is lowest ranked on the highest number of ballots, and then repeats > both steps until one candidate > remains. > > Is that right? > > From the page you linked to: > >> To appreciate how easy it is to understand, here’s a full description >> of the IPE method: >> >> “*Voters rank the candidates using as many ranking levels as there >> are candidates, or at least 5 ranking levels if ovals are marked on a >> paper ballot and space is limited and lots of the candidates are >> unlikely to win. During counting, each elimination round eliminates >> the candidate who loses every pairwise contest against every other >> remaining candidate. If an elimination round has no pairwise-losing >> candidate then, for that round, each ballot gives one count to the >> lowest-ranked remaining candidate on that ballot, and the candidate >> with the highest such count is eliminated. The last remaining >> candidate wins.*” >> > > Chris Benham > > On 22/05/2019 5:13 am, VoteFair wrote: >> On 5/20/2019 12:46 PM, steve bosworth wrote: >>> Re: Best Single- Winner Method >>> ... >>> Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming >>> that  we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method: >>> >>>  1. To be simple enough so voters  can both use it and understand >>> how it >>>     is counted; >>>  2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below), and >>>  3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the >>>     candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute >>>     majority) of all the citizens voting, and >>>  4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical. >> >> I suggest that Instant Pairwise Elimination provides a great balance >> among these requirements. >> >> 1: It's simple to use, and simple to understand how to count. >> >> 2: Rarely could a voter identify a situation where their vote was >> wasted. >> >> 3: It's not a Condorcet method, yet it would be very rare for it to >> elect a non-Condorcet winner. >> >> 4: Tactical voting is possible, but only when a rock-paper-scissors >> cycle is involved AND involves the most popular candidates. >> >> As a reminder of Instant Pairwise Elimination, it's described here: >> >> https://democracychronicles.org/instant-pairwise-elimination/ >> >> Richard Fobes >> ---- >> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for >> list info > > <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> > Virus-free. www.avg.com > <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list info --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com
C
C.Benham
Wed, May 22, 2019 12:12 PM

Steve,

Earlier I responded briefly to your 4-point list: yes, yes, not
possible,yes.

To expand a bit, MJ is a Median Ratings method with a relatively
complicated tie-breaker, justified by I've no idea what.

Bucklin is likewise a Median Ratings method and will usually give the
same winner, but the "tie breaker" is simple.

An example I recently came up with to critique another Bucklin-like
proposal:

46: A
03: A>B
25: C>B
23: D>B

97 ballots  (majority threshold = 48)

(If  you want MJ-style  multi-slot ratings ballots, assume that all the
voters have given their favourite the highest possible
rating and those that rated B above bottom all gave B the same middle
rating and that truncating here signifies giving the
lowest possible rating).

MJ and Bucklin  both rightly elect A.   IBIFA  and IRV also elect A.  A
is the Condorcet winner: A>B 49-48, A>C 49-25, A>D 49-23,
A>E 49>0.

A is the most Top-rated candidate:  A49,  C25,  D23,  B0, E0.

So suppose the votes are counted and it is announced that A has won, but
just before this is officially and irrevocably confirmed
someone pipes up, "Hang on a minute, we found a few more ballots!" 
(Maybe they are late-arriving postal votes that had been
thought lost.)

These 3 new ballots are inspected and found that all they do is give the
highest possible rating to E, a candidate with no support
on any of the other 97 ballots. What do we do now?  Laugh and carry on
with confirming A as still the winner?  No.

46: A
03: A>B
25: C>B
23: D>B
03: E

100 ballots  (majority threshold = 51)

Now MJ  and Bucklin and any other Median Ratings method elects B. All
methods that I find acceptable elect A both with
and without those 3E ballots.

To expand a bit my earlier response to your point 4, I think it's highly
desirable for a method to meet FBC (the Favorite Betrayal
Criterion), especially in the current US situation.

Potentially popular candidates the mainstream media and political
establishment doesn't like can be sunk by fake polls and
the voters' fear of some perceived Greater Evil.

They can say "Forget candidate X!  X is only polling at 1 or 2%. That
justifies us ignoring X. If you vote for X you'll just be helping
Greater Evil win!".  And their prophesy that X won't be a viable
candidate tends to be self-fulfilling.

But if the used voting method meets FBC, the voter can in response reply
(or at least think) "Ok, maybe I have to top-rate some
'realistic' Compromise candidate to maximise  the chance of beating
Greater Evil, but I like X and I know that it can't possibly hurt
me to also top-rate X so I will."

If the method meets FBC no voter who knows and understands that can be
cowed into not voting their sincere favorite at least
equal-top.  FBC is met by Approval, MJ and the currently proposed
version of Bucklin, and IBIFA.

Of those I judge IBIFA to be by far the best.  IRV and all Condorcet
methods unfortunately fail FBC.

For a method that doesn't meet FBC, I consider meeting the Condorcet
criterion to be desirable. Unfortunately all Condorcet
methods are (to greatly varying degrees) vulnerable to Burial strategy,
i.e. insincerely down-ranking to make a higher (usually
top) ranked candidate win.

In my humble opinion the best of the methods that are invulnerable to
Burial is IRV.

Chris Benham

On 21/05/2019 5:16 am, steve bosworth wrote:

Re: Best Single- Winner Method

Sennet Williams,Forest Simmons, Robert Bristow-Johnson, Abd dul Raman
Lomax, and Chris Benham have recently addressed each others’ claims
about IRV, 3-slot Methods, IBIFA, and Asset.This discussion prompts me
to request some help later after I have clarified several issues.

Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am
assuming that we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method:

  1. To be simple enough so voters can both use it and understand how
    it is counted;
  2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below),and
  3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the
    candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute
    majority) of all the citizens voting, and
  4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical.

Given these desires, currently I see Majority Judgment (MJ) as
superior to all of the above methods on each of these counts.However,
since the above discussions have not mentioned MJ, I assume that many
contributors would reject this claim for MJ. This is why I would very
much appreciate receiving any of your clarifications or explanations
of how my claim for MJ cannot be sustained.What important flaws to you
see in MJ?

To help you to marshal your criticisms of MJ, please let me explain
more full my own understandings and reasons for favoring MJ.Firstly,
Isee a citizen’s vote as being wasted /quantitatively/ to the degree
that it fails equally to help one of their most trusted candidates to
win.  A citizen’s vote is wasted /qualitatively/ to the degree that it
instead helps to elect a candidate whom they judge less /fit/ for
office, rather than an available candidate judged to be more fit.

Other than in MJ, such waste is present in all the existing methods,
whether they ask voters to rank, score, or approve as many of the
candidates as they might wish.Of course, most dramatic is the waste
provided by plurality or First-Past-The-Post voting.

To counter qualitative waste, Balinski and Laraki (/Majority Judgment,
/2010 MIT) argue that our capacity for judging qualities of human
behavior can be most meaningfully expressed in an election by each
voter grading each candidate’s suitability for office as either
Excellent (/ideal/), Very Good, Good, Acceptable, Poor, or “Reject”
(/entirely unsuitable/).These grades are more discerning, meaningful,
and informative than merely expressing preferences or using numeric
scores[MOU1] <#_msocom_1>, X’s or ticks.Such grading makes it more
likely that the highest quality candidate will be elected in the eyes
of the electorate.

Each candidate who is not explicitly graded is counted as ”Reject” by
that voter.  As a result, all the candidates will receiv the same
number of evaluations, but a different set of grades from the
voters.The Majority Judgment (MJ) winner is the one who has received
grades from an absolute majority of all the voters that are equal to,
or higher than, the highest /median-grade/ given to any candidate.
This median-grade is found as follows:

  • Place all the grades, high to low, top to bottom, in side-by-side
    columns, the name of each candidate at the top of each of these
    columns.
  • The median-grade for each candidate is the grade located half way
    down each column, i.e. in the middle if there is an odd number of
    voters, the lower middle if the number is even.

If more than one candidate has the same highest median-grade, the MJ
winner is discovered by removing (one-by-one) any grades equal in
value to the current highest median grade from each tied candidate’s
total until only one of the previously tied candidates currently has
the highest remaining median-grade.

Also, in contrast to the alternatives, Balinski explains how MJ
reduces by almost half, both the incentives and opportunities for
effective tactical voting.Thus, each voter has every appropriate
incentive, not only to vote but to reveal their honest evaluations of
each candidate.

Thus, to me, using MJ should be simpler and more satisfying because
grading many candidates is both easier and more meaningful than
ranking or scoring them.Also, finding and comparing the median-grades
of all the candidate is quite simple.Unlike MJ, IRV, Condorcet
methods, and Scoring do not guarantee the election of the candidate
most preferred by at least 50% plus one of all the citizens
voting.Unlike IRV but like Condorcet methods and Score, MJ does not
eliminate any candidate until the winner is discovered.

Finally, I would favor the following Asset option to be added at the
bottom of each MJ ballot:  Any citizen who currently feels that they
do not yet know enough about any of the candidates to grade them, can
instead give their proxy vote to the Register Elector who will do this
for them.  They could do this  by WRITING-IN the published code of
that Registered Elector.

I look forward to your comments.

Steve

[MOU1] <#_msoanchor_1>Numerical scores


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Steve, Earlier I responded briefly to your 4-point list: yes, yes, not possible,yes. To expand a bit, MJ is a Median Ratings method with a relatively complicated tie-breaker, justified by I've no idea what. Bucklin is likewise a Median Ratings method and will usually give the same winner, but the "tie breaker" is simple. An example I recently came up with to critique another Bucklin-like proposal: 46: A 03: A>B 25: C>B 23: D>B 97 ballots  (majority threshold = 48) (If  you want MJ-style  multi-slot ratings ballots, assume that all the voters have given their favourite the highest possible rating and those that rated B above bottom all gave B the same middle rating and that truncating here signifies giving the lowest possible rating). MJ and Bucklin  both rightly elect A.   IBIFA  and IRV also elect A.  A is the Condorcet winner: A>B 49-48, A>C 49-25, A>D 49-23, A>E 49>0. A is the most Top-rated candidate:  A49,  C25,  D23,  B0, E0. So suppose the votes are counted and it is announced that A has won, but just before this is officially and irrevocably confirmed someone pipes up, "Hang on a minute, we found a few more ballots!"  (Maybe they are late-arriving postal votes that had been thought lost.) These 3 new ballots are inspected and found that all they do is give the highest possible rating to E, a candidate with no support on any of the other 97 ballots. What do we do now?  Laugh and carry on with confirming A as still the winner?  No. 46: A 03: A>B 25: C>B 23: D>B 03: E 100 ballots  (majority threshold = 51) Now MJ  and Bucklin and any other Median Ratings method elects B. All methods that I find acceptable elect A both with and without those 3E ballots. To expand a bit my earlier response to your point 4, I think it's highly desirable for a method to meet FBC (the Favorite Betrayal Criterion), especially in the current US situation. Potentially popular candidates the mainstream media and political establishment doesn't like can be sunk by fake polls and the voters' fear of some perceived Greater Evil. They can say "Forget candidate X!  X is only polling at 1 or 2%. That justifies us ignoring X. If you vote for X you'll just be helping Greater Evil win!".  And their prophesy that X won't be a viable candidate tends to be self-fulfilling. But if the used voting method meets FBC, the voter can in response reply (or at least think) "Ok, maybe I have to top-rate some 'realistic' Compromise candidate to maximise  the chance of beating Greater Evil, but I like X and I know that it can't possibly hurt me to also top-rate X so I will." If the method meets FBC no voter who knows and understands that can be cowed into not voting their sincere favorite at least equal-top.  FBC is met by Approval, MJ and the currently proposed version of Bucklin, and IBIFA. Of those I judge IBIFA to be by far the best.  IRV and all Condorcet methods unfortunately fail FBC. For a method that doesn't meet FBC, I consider meeting the Condorcet criterion to be desirable. Unfortunately all Condorcet methods are (to greatly varying degrees) vulnerable to Burial strategy, i.e. insincerely down-ranking to make a higher (usually top) ranked candidate win. In my humble opinion the best of the methods that are invulnerable to Burial is IRV. Chris Benham On 21/05/2019 5:16 am, steve bosworth wrote: > > Re: Best Single- Winner Method > > > Sennet Williams,Forest Simmons, Robert Bristow-Johnson, Abd dul Raman > Lomax, and Chris Benham have recently addressed each others’ claims > about IRV, 3-slot Methods, IBIFA, and Asset.This discussion prompts me > to request some help later after I have clarified several issues. > > Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am > assuming that we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method: > > 1. To be simple enough so voters can both use it and understand how > it is counted; > 2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below),and > 3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the > candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute > majority) of all the citizens voting, and > 4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical. > > Given these desires, currently I see Majority Judgment (MJ) as > superior to all of the above methods on each of these counts.However, > since the above discussions have not mentioned MJ, I assume that many > contributors would reject this claim for MJ. This is why I would very > much appreciate receiving any of your clarifications or explanations > of how my claim for MJ cannot be sustained.What important flaws to you > see in MJ? > > To help you to marshal your criticisms of MJ, please let me explain > more full my own understandings and reasons for favoring MJ.Firstly, > Isee a citizen’s vote as being wasted /quantitatively/ to the degree > that it fails equally to help one of their most trusted candidates to > win.  A citizen’s vote is wasted /qualitatively/ to the degree that it > instead helps to elect a candidate whom they judge less /fit/ for > office, rather than an available candidate judged to be more fit. > > Other than in MJ, such waste is present in all the existing methods, > whether they ask voters to rank, score, or approve as many of the > candidates as they might wish.Of course, most dramatic is the waste > provided by plurality or First-Past-The-Post voting. > > To counter qualitative waste, Balinski and Laraki (/Majority Judgment, > /2010 MIT) argue that our capacity for judging qualities of human > behavior can be most meaningfully expressed in an election by each > voter grading each candidate’s suitability for office as either > Excellent (/ideal/), Very Good, Good, Acceptable, Poor, or “Reject” > (/entirely unsuitable/).These grades are more discerning, meaningful, > and informative than merely expressing preferences or using numeric > scores[MOU1] <#_msocom_1>, X’s or ticks.Such grading makes it more > likely that the highest quality candidate will be elected in the eyes > of the electorate. > > Each candidate who is not explicitly graded is counted as ”Reject” by > that voter.  As a result, all the candidates will receiv the same > number of evaluations, but a different set of grades from the > voters.The Majority Judgment (MJ) winner is the one who has received > grades from an absolute majority of all the voters that are equal to, > or higher than, the highest /median-grade/ given to any candidate. > This median-grade is found as follows: > > * Place all the grades, high to low, top to bottom, in side-by-side > columns, the name of each candidate at the top of each of these > columns. > * The median-grade for each candidate is the grade located half way > down each column, i.e. in the middle if there is an odd number of > voters, the lower middle if the number is even. > > > If more than one candidate has the same highest median-grade, the MJ > winner is discovered by removing (one-by-one) any grades equal in > value to the current highest median grade from each tied candidate’s > total until only one of the previously tied candidates currently has > the highest remaining median-grade. > > Also, in contrast to the alternatives, Balinski explains how MJ > reduces by almost half, both the incentives and opportunities for > effective tactical voting.Thus, each voter has every appropriate > incentive, not only to vote but to reveal their honest evaluations of > each candidate. > > Thus, to me, using MJ should be simpler and more satisfying because > grading many candidates is both easier and more meaningful than > ranking or scoring them.Also, finding and comparing the median-grades > of all the candidate is quite simple.Unlike MJ, IRV, Condorcet > methods, and Scoring do not guarantee the election of the candidate > most preferred by at least 50% plus one of all the citizens > voting.Unlike IRV but like Condorcet methods and Score, MJ does not > eliminate any candidate until the winner is discovered. > > Finally, I would favor the following Asset option to be added at the > bottom of each MJ ballot:  Any citizen who currently feels that they > do not yet know enough about any of the candidates to grade them, can > instead give their proxy vote to the Register Elector who will do this > for them.  They could do this  by WRITING-IN the published code of > that Registered Elector. > > I look forward to your comments. > > Steve > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > [MOU1] <#_msoanchor_1>Numerical scores > > > > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list info --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com
V
VoteFair
Wed, May 22, 2019 7:53 PM

On 5/22/2019 1:28 AM, C.Benham wrote:

... I suppose you could have a bottom cycle and a
CW who is ranked bottom on the highest number of ballots.

That combination would be very very unlikely, but why allow it?
Why not use my version?

If you are referring to Majority Judgement (MJ) then my answer is that
MJ is difficult to understand -- from the perspective of just using
spoken words while talking to someone who does not already understand
terms such as "majority" -- not to mention "Smith set" and "Condorcet".

(If you are referring to something other than MJ, please specify what it
is.)

Being easy to understand is extremely important -- as mentioned in item
number 1 in an earlier message within this thread.

When talking to non-math people, I use the term "pairwise counting" and
when someone does not immediately nod their head in recognition then I
refer to the analogy of sports teams and the idea that if there is a
team that loses every game against each other team then they clearly
deserve to be eliminated.  I haven't encountered anyone who hasn't
understood that.

Also I find that non-math folks seem to emotionally like the idea of
working from the bottom up, eliminating one candidate at a time.  This
might be why instant-runoff voting (IRV) is so popular.

If a "rock-paper-scissors cycle" (which most people immediately
understand) occurs, I agree that there are better methods for resolving
those, but they are more difficult to understand.

I figure if Instant Pairwise Elimination (IPE) gets used anywhere then
it will be easy to later transition to something better, such as the
Condorcet-Kemeny method, which is mathematically equivalent to VoteFair
popularity ranking, which is part of the VoteFair system that I advocate
(and which includes proportional representation).

In other words, it would be rare for IPE and Condorcet-Kemeny to yield
different winners, so I figure this difference is not worth teaching to
non-math people.  IPE gives them something they can quickly understand.
And it helps them quickly realize why our current single-winner method
is so primitive.

Richard Fobes

On 5/22/2019 1:28 AM, C.Benham wrote:

Richard,

To answer my own question, I suppose you could have a bottom cycle and a
CW who is ranked
bottom on the highest number of ballots.

That combination would be very very unlikely, but why allow it?  Why not
use my version?

Chris Benham

On 22/05/2019 3:15 pm, C.Benham wrote:

Richard,

Can you please explain, perhaps with an example, how your "Instant
Pairwise Elimination"
method can possibly "elect a non-Condorcet winner"?

As I understand it, the method eliminates all the non-members of the
Smith set, and then if
more than one candidate remains, next eliminates the candidate who
(among remaining candidates)
is lowest ranked on the highest number of ballots, and then repeats
both steps until one candidate
remains.

Is that right?

From the page you linked to:

To appreciate how easy it is to understand, here’s a full description
of the IPE method:

Voters rank the candidates using as many ranking levels as there
are candidates, or at least 5 ranking levels if ovals are marked on a
paper ballot and space is limited and lots of the candidates are
unlikely to win. During counting, each elimination round eliminates
the candidate who loses every pairwise contest against every other
remaining candidate. If an elimination round has no pairwise-losing
candidate then, for that round, each ballot gives one count to the
lowest-ranked remaining candidate on that ballot, and the candidate
with the highest such count is eliminated. The last remaining
candidate wins.

Chris Benham

On 5/22/2019 1:28 AM, C.Benham wrote: > ... I suppose you could have a bottom cycle and a > CW who is ranked bottom on the highest number of ballots. > > That combination would be very very unlikely, but why allow it? > Why not use my version? If you are referring to Majority Judgement (MJ) then my answer is that MJ is difficult to understand -- from the perspective of just using spoken words while talking to someone who does not already understand terms such as "majority" -- not to mention "Smith set" and "Condorcet". (If you are referring to something other than MJ, please specify what it is.) Being easy to understand is extremely important -- as mentioned in item number 1 in an earlier message within this thread. When talking to non-math people, I use the term "pairwise counting" and when someone does not immediately nod their head in recognition then I refer to the analogy of sports teams and the idea that if there is a team that loses every game against each other team then they clearly deserve to be eliminated. I haven't encountered anyone who hasn't understood that. Also I find that non-math folks seem to emotionally like the idea of working from the bottom up, eliminating one candidate at a time. This might be why instant-runoff voting (IRV) is so popular. If a "rock-paper-scissors cycle" (which most people immediately understand) occurs, I agree that there are better methods for resolving those, but they are more difficult to understand. I figure if Instant Pairwise Elimination (IPE) gets used anywhere then it will be easy to later transition to something better, such as the Condorcet-Kemeny method, which is mathematically equivalent to VoteFair popularity ranking, which is part of the VoteFair system that I advocate (and which includes proportional representation). In other words, it would be rare for IPE and Condorcet-Kemeny to yield different winners, so I figure this difference is not worth teaching to non-math people. IPE gives them something they can quickly understand. And it helps them quickly realize why our current single-winner method is so primitive. Richard Fobes On 5/22/2019 1:28 AM, C.Benham wrote: > Richard, > > To answer my own question, I suppose you could have a bottom cycle and a > CW who is ranked > bottom on the highest number of ballots. > > That combination would be very very unlikely, but why allow it? Why not > use my version? > > Chris Benham > > On 22/05/2019 3:15 pm, C.Benham wrote: >> >> Richard, >> >> Can you please explain, perhaps with an example, how your "Instant >> Pairwise Elimination" >> method can possibly "elect a non-Condorcet winner"? >> >> As I understand it, the method eliminates all the non-members of the >> Smith set, and then if >> more than one candidate remains, next eliminates the candidate who >> (among remaining candidates) >> is lowest ranked on the highest number of ballots, and then repeats >> both steps until one candidate >> remains. >> >> Is that right? >> >> From the page you linked to: >> >>> To appreciate how easy it is to understand, here’s a full description >>> of the IPE method: >>> >>> “*Voters rank the candidates using as many ranking levels as there >>> are candidates, or at least 5 ranking levels if ovals are marked on a >>> paper ballot and space is limited and lots of the candidates are >>> unlikely to win. During counting, each elimination round eliminates >>> the candidate who loses every pairwise contest against every other >>> remaining candidate. If an elimination round has no pairwise-losing >>> candidate then, for that round, each ballot gives one count to the >>> lowest-ranked remaining candidate on that ballot, and the candidate >>> with the highest such count is eliminated. The last remaining >>> candidate wins.*” >>> >> >> Chris Benham
CB
Chris Benham
Wed, May 22, 2019 8:40 PM

Richard F.,

(If you are referring to something other than MJ, please specify what
it is.)

I did. Did you mean to refer to MJ?

On 22/05/2019 3:15 pm, C.Benham wrote:

Richard,

Can you please explain, perhaps with an example, how your "Instant
Pairwise Elimination" method can possibly "elect a non-Condorcet winner"?

I don't think Smith set is very hard to explain. But you could even omit
that and
just say that if one candidate pairwise beats all the others it wins and
if not we
eliminate any candidate that pairwise loses to all the others and if
there isn't one
we eliminate the candidate that is lowest ranked on the greatest number
of ballots
and then repeat the whole process.

This would ensure that the method meets Condorcet (and Smith) and most
of the
time there will be a CW and a lot of mucking about will be avoided.

Chris Benham

On 23/05/2019 5:23 am, VoteFair wrote:

On 5/22/2019 1:28 AM, C.Benham wrote:

... I suppose you could have a bottom cycle and a
CW who is ranked bottom on the highest number of ballots.

That combination would be very very unlikely, but why allow it?
Why not use my version?

If you are referring to Majority Judgement (MJ) then my answer is that
MJ is difficult to understand -- from the perspective of just using
spoken words while talking to someone who does not already understand
terms such as "majority" -- not to mention "Smith set" and "Condorcet".

(If you are referring to something other than MJ, please specify what
it is.)

Being easy to understand is extremely important -- as mentioned in
item number 1 in an earlier message within this thread.

When talking to non-math people, I use the term "pairwise counting"
and when someone does not immediately nod their head in recognition
then I refer to the analogy of sports teams and the idea that if there
is a team that loses every game against each other team then they
clearly deserve to be eliminated.? I haven't encountered anyone who
hasn't understood that.

Also I find that non-math folks seem to emotionally like the idea of
working from the bottom up, eliminating one candidate at a time.? This
might be why instant-runoff voting (IRV) is so popular.

If a "rock-paper-scissors cycle" (which most people immediately
understand) occurs, I agree that there are better methods for
resolving those, but they are more difficult to understand.

I figure if Instant Pairwise Elimination (IPE) gets used anywhere then
it will be easy to later transition to something better, such as the
Condorcet-Kemeny method, which is mathematically equivalent to
VoteFair popularity ranking, which is part of the VoteFair system that
I advocate (and which includes proportional representation).

In other words, it would be rare for IPE and Condorcet-Kemeny to yield
different winners, so I figure this difference is not worth teaching
to non-math people.? IPE gives them something they can quickly
understand. And it helps them quickly realize why our current
single-winner method is so primitive.

Richard Fobes

On 5/22/2019 1:28 AM, C.Benham wrote:

Richard,

To answer my own question, I suppose you could have a bottom cycle and a
CW who is ranked
bottom on the highest number of ballots.

That combination would be very very unlikely, but why allow it? Why not
use my version?

Chris Benham

On 22/05/2019 3:15 pm, C.Benham wrote:

Richard,

Can you please explain, perhaps with an example, how your "Instant
Pairwise Elimination"
method can possibly "elect a non-Condorcet winner"?

As I understand it, the method eliminates all the non-members of the
Smith set, and then if
more than one candidate remains, next eliminates the candidate who
(among remaining candidates)
is lowest ranked on the highest number of ballots, and then repeats
both steps until one candidate
remains.

Is that right?

From the page you linked to:

To appreciate how easy it is to understand, here?s a full description
of the IPE method:

?Voters rank the candidates using as many ranking levels as there
are candidates, or at least 5 ranking levels if ovals are marked on a
paper ballot and space is limited and lots of the candidates are
unlikely to win. During counting, each elimination round eliminates
the candidate who loses every pairwise contest against every other
remaining candidate. If an elimination round has no pairwise-losing
candidate then, for that round, each ballot gives one count to the
lowest-ranked remaining candidate on that ballot, and the candidate
with the highest such count is eliminated. The last remaining
candidate wins.
?

Chris Benham


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Richard F., > (If you are referring to something other than MJ, please specify what > it is.) I did. Did you mean to refer to MJ? > On 22/05/2019 3:15 pm, C.Benham wrote: > > Richard, > > Can you please explain, perhaps with an example, how your "Instant > Pairwise Elimination" method can possibly "elect a non-Condorcet winner"? I don't think Smith set is very hard to explain. But you could even omit that and just say that if one candidate pairwise beats all the others it wins and if not we eliminate any candidate that pairwise loses to all the others and if there isn't one we eliminate the candidate that is lowest ranked on the greatest number of ballots and then repeat the whole process. This would ensure that the method meets Condorcet (and Smith) and most of the time there will be a CW and a lot of mucking about will be avoided. Chris Benham On 23/05/2019 5:23 am, VoteFair wrote: > On 5/22/2019 1:28 AM, C.Benham wrote: > > ... I suppose you could have a bottom cycle and a > > CW who is ranked bottom on the highest number of ballots. > > > > That combination would be very very unlikely, but why allow it? > > Why not use my version? > > If you are referring to Majority Judgement (MJ) then my answer is that > MJ is difficult to understand -- from the perspective of just using > spoken words while talking to someone who does not already understand > terms such as "majority" -- not to mention "Smith set" and "Condorcet". > > (If you are referring to something other than MJ, please specify what > it is.) > > Being easy to understand is extremely important -- as mentioned in > item number 1 in an earlier message within this thread. > > When talking to non-math people, I use the term "pairwise counting" > and when someone does not immediately nod their head in recognition > then I refer to the analogy of sports teams and the idea that if there > is a team that loses every game against each other team then they > clearly deserve to be eliminated.? I haven't encountered anyone who > hasn't understood that. > > Also I find that non-math folks seem to emotionally like the idea of > working from the bottom up, eliminating one candidate at a time.? This > might be why instant-runoff voting (IRV) is so popular. > > If a "rock-paper-scissors cycle" (which most people immediately > understand) occurs, I agree that there are better methods for > resolving those, but they are more difficult to understand. > > I figure if Instant Pairwise Elimination (IPE) gets used anywhere then > it will be easy to later transition to something better, such as the > Condorcet-Kemeny method, which is mathematically equivalent to > VoteFair popularity ranking, which is part of the VoteFair system that > I advocate (and which includes proportional representation). > > In other words, it would be rare for IPE and Condorcet-Kemeny to yield > different winners, so I figure this difference is not worth teaching > to non-math people.? IPE gives them something they can quickly > understand. And it helps them quickly realize why our current > single-winner method is so primitive. > > Richard Fobes > > > On 5/22/2019 1:28 AM, C.Benham wrote: >> Richard, >> >> To answer my own question, I suppose you could have a bottom cycle and a >> CW who is ranked >> bottom on the highest number of ballots. >> >> That combination would be very very unlikely, but why allow it? Why not >> use my version? >> >> Chris Benham >> >> On 22/05/2019 3:15 pm, C.Benham wrote: >>> >>> Richard, >>> >>> Can you please explain, perhaps with an example, how your "Instant >>> Pairwise Elimination" >>> method can possibly "elect a non-Condorcet winner"? >>> >>> As I understand it, the method eliminates all the non-members of the >>> Smith set, and then if >>> more than one candidate remains, next eliminates the candidate who >>> (among remaining candidates) >>> is lowest ranked on the highest number of ballots, and then repeats >>> both steps until one candidate >>> remains. >>> >>> Is that right? >>> >>> From the page you linked to: >>> >>>> To appreciate how easy it is to understand, here?s a full description >>>> of the IPE method: >>>> >>>> ?*Voters rank the candidates using as many ranking levels as there >>>> are candidates, or at least 5 ranking levels if ovals are marked on a >>>> paper ballot and space is limited and lots of the candidates are >>>> unlikely to win. During counting, each elimination round eliminates >>>> the candidate who loses every pairwise contest against every other >>>> remaining candidate. If an elimination round has no pairwise-losing >>>> candidate then, for that round, each ballot gives one count to the >>>> lowest-ranked remaining candidate on that ballot, and the candidate >>>> with the highest such count is eliminated. The last remaining >>>> candidate wins.*? >>>> >>> >>> Chris Benham > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list > info --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com
TS
Ted Stern
Fri, May 24, 2019 6:09 PM

Hi Chris,

You write (emphasis mine):

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 5:12 AM C.Benham cbenham@adam.com.au wrote:

Steve,

Earlier I responded briefly to your 4-point list: yes, yes, not
possible,yes.

To expand a bit, MJ is a Median Ratings method with a relatively
complicated tie-breaker, justified by I've no idea what.

Bucklin is likewise a Median Ratings method and will usually give the same
winner, but the "tie breaker" is simple.

The justification for the Majority Judgment tie breaker is that when two
candidates have the same median rating, the proper way to resolve the tie
is to look at the minimal number of ballots that must be removed to change
their median rating.  So it is similar to Minimax Pairwise Margins
justification of minimal change.  This tie breaker leans towards those
candidates with stronger support above the median rating.

My privately proposed method of Relevant Ratings (formerly known as EXACT)
uses a MJ-like tie breaker with your IBIFA method to get a similar effect.

An example I recently came up with to critique another Bucklin-like
proposal:

46: A
03: A>B
25: C>B
23: D>B

97 ballots  (majority threshold = 48)

(If  you want MJ-style  multi-slot ratings ballots, assume that all the
voters have given their favourite the highest possible
rating and those that rated B above bottom all gave B the same middle
rating and that truncating here signifies giving the
lowest possible rating).

MJ and Bucklin  both rightly elect A.  IBIFA  and IRV also elect A.  A is
the Condorcet winner: A>B 49-48, A>C 49-25, A>D 49-23,
A>E 49>0.

A is the most Top-rated candidate:  A49,  C25,  D23,  B0, E0.

So suppose the votes are counted and it is announced that A has won, but
just before this is officially and irrevocably confirmed
someone pipes up, "Hang on a minute, we found a few more ballots!"  (Maybe
they are late-arriving postal votes that had been
thought lost.)

These 3 new ballots are inspected and found that all they do is give the
highest possible rating to E, a candidate with no support
on any of the other 97 ballots. What do we do now?  Laugh and carry on
with confirming A as still the winner?  No.

46: A
03: A>B
25: C>B
23: D>B
03: E

100 ballots  (majority threshold = 51)

Now MJ  and Bucklin and any other Median Ratings method elects B.  All
methods that I find acceptable elect A both with
and without those 3E ballots.

To expand a bit my earlier response to your point 4, I think it's highly
desirable for a method to meet FBC (the Favorite Betrayal
Criterion), especially in the current US situation.

Potentially popular candidates the mainstream media and political
establishment doesn't like can be sunk by fake polls and
the voters' fear of some perceived Greater Evil.

They can say "Forget candidate X!  X is only polling at 1 or 2%. That
justifies us ignoring X. If you vote for X you'll just be helping
Greater Evil win!".  And their prophesy that X won't be a viable candidate
tends to be self-fulfilling.

But if the used voting method meets FBC, the voter can in response reply
(or at least think) "Ok, maybe I have to top-rate some
'realistic' Compromise candidate to maximise  the chance of beating
Greater Evil, but I like X and I know that it can't possibly hurt
me to also top-rate X so I will."

If the method meets FBC no voter who knows and understands that can be
cowed into not voting their sincere favorite at least
equal-top.  FBC is met by Approval, MJ and the currently proposed version
of Bucklin, and IBIFA.

Of those I judge IBIFA to be by far the best.  IRV and all Condorcet
methods unfortunately fail FBC.

For a method that doesn't meet FBC, I consider meeting the Condorcet
criterion to be desirable. Unfortunately all Condorcet
methods are (to greatly varying degrees) vulnerable to Burial strategy,
i.e. insincerely down-ranking to make a higher (usually
top) ranked candidate win.

In my humble opinion the best of the methods that are invulnerable to
Burial is IRV.

Chris Benham

On 21/05/2019 5:16 am, steve bosworth wrote:

Re: Best Single- Winner Method

Sennet Williams,  Forest Simmons, Robert Bristow-Johnson, Abd dul Raman
Lomax, and Chris Benham have recently addressed each others’ claims about
IRV, 3-slot Methods, IBIFA, and Asset.  This discussion prompts me to
request some help later after I have clarified several issues.

Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming
that  we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method:

1. To be simple enough so voters  can both use it and understand how
it is counted;
2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below),  and
3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the
candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute majority) of
all the citizens voting, and
4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical.

Given these desires, currently I see Majority Judgment (MJ) as superior to
all of the above methods on each of these counts.  However, since the
above discussions have not mentioned MJ, I assume that many contributors
would reject this claim for MJ.  This is why I would very much appreciate
receiving any of your clarifications or explanations of how my claim for MJ
cannot be sustained.  What important flaws to you see in MJ?

To help you to marshal your criticisms of MJ, please let me explain more
full my own understandings and reasons for favoring MJ.  Firstly, I see a
citizen’s vote as being wasted quantitatively to the degree that it
fails equally to help one of their most trusted candidates to win.  A
citizen’s vote is wasted qualitatively to the degree that it instead
helps to elect a candidate whom they judge less fit for office, rather
than an available candidate judged to be more fit.

Other than in MJ, such waste is present in all the existing methods,
whether they ask voters to rank, score, or approve as many of the
candidates as they might wish.  Of course, most dramatic is the waste
provided by plurality or First-Past-The-Post voting.

To counter qualitative waste, Balinski and Laraki (*Majority Judgment, *2010
MIT) argue that our capacity for judging qualities of human behavior can be
most meaningfully expressed in an election by each voter grading each
candidate’s suitability for office as either Excellent (ideal), Very
Good, Good, Acceptable, Poor, or “Reject” (entirely unsuitable).  These
grades are more discerning, meaningful, and informative than merely
expressing preferences or using numeric scores[MOU1]
<#m_-2981034959420349233__msocom_1> , X’s or ticks.  Such grading makes
it more likely that the highest quality candidate will be elected in the
eyes of the electorate.

Each candidate who is not explicitly graded is counted as ”Reject” by that
voter.  As a result, all the candidates will receiv the same number of
evaluations, but a different set of grades from the voters.  The Majority
Judgment (MJ) winner is the one who has received grades from an absolute
majority of all the voters that are equal to, or higher than, the highest
median-grade given to any candidate. This median-grade is found as
follows:

- Place all the grades, high to low, top to bottom, in side-by-side
columns, the name of each candidate at the top of each of these columns.
- The median-grade for each candidate is the grade located half way
down each column, i.e. in the middle if there is an odd number of voters,
the lower middle if the number is even.

If more than one candidate has the same highest median-grade, the MJ
winner is discovered by removing (one-by-one) any grades equal in value to
the current highest median grade from each tied candidate’s total until
only one of the previously tied candidates currently has the highest
remaining median-grade.

Also, in contrast to the alternatives, Balinski  explains how MJ reduces
by almost half, both the incentives and opportunities for effective
tactical voting.  Thus, each voter has every appropriate incentive, not
only to vote but to reveal their honest evaluations of each candidate.

Thus, to me, using MJ should be simpler and more satisfying because
grading many candidates is both easier and more meaningful than ranking or
scoring them.  Also, finding and comparing the median-grades of all the
candidate is quite simple.  Unlike MJ, IRV, Condorcet methods, and
Scoring do not guarantee the election of the candidate most preferred by at
least 50% plus one of all the citizens voting.  Unlike IRV but like
Condorcet methods and Score, MJ does not eliminate any candidate until the
winner is discovered.

Finally, I would favor the following Asset option to be added at the
bottom of each MJ ballot:  Any citizen who currently feels that they do not
yet know enough about any of the candidates to grade them, can instead give
their proxy vote to the Register Elector who will do this for them.  They
could do this  by WRITING-IN the published code of that Registered Elector.

I look forward to your comments.

Steve

[MOU1] <#m_-2981034959420349233__msoanchor_1>Numerical scores


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Hi Chris, You write (emphasis mine): On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 5:12 AM C.Benham <cbenham@adam.com.au> wrote: > Steve, > > Earlier I responded briefly to your 4-point list: yes, yes, not > possible,yes. > > To expand a bit, MJ is a Median Ratings method with a relatively > complicated tie-breaker, *justified by I've no idea what.* > > Bucklin is likewise a Median Ratings method and will usually give the same > winner, but the "tie breaker" is simple. > The justification for the Majority Judgment tie breaker is that when two candidates have the same median rating, the proper way to resolve the tie is to look at the minimal number of ballots that must be removed to change their median rating. So it is similar to Minimax Pairwise Margins justification of minimal change. This tie breaker leans towards those candidates with stronger support above the median rating. My privately proposed method of Relevant Ratings (formerly known as EXACT) uses a MJ-like tie breaker with your IBIFA method to get a similar effect. > An example I recently came up with to critique another Bucklin-like > proposal: > > 46: A > 03: A>B > 25: C>B > 23: D>B > > 97 ballots (majority threshold = 48) > > (If you want MJ-style multi-slot ratings ballots, assume that all the > voters have given their favourite the highest possible > rating and those that rated B above bottom all gave B the same middle > rating and that truncating here signifies giving the > lowest possible rating). > > MJ and Bucklin both rightly elect A. IBIFA and IRV also elect A. A is > the Condorcet winner: A>B 49-48, A>C 49-25, A>D 49-23, > A>E 49>0. > > A is the most Top-rated candidate: A49, C25, D23, B0, E0. > > So suppose the votes are counted and it is announced that A has won, but > just before this is officially and irrevocably confirmed > someone pipes up, "Hang on a minute, we found a few more ballots!" (Maybe > they are late-arriving postal votes that had been > thought lost.) > > These 3 new ballots are inspected and found that all they do is give the > highest possible rating to E, a candidate with no support > on any of the other 97 ballots. What do we do now? Laugh and carry on > with confirming A as still the winner? No. > > 46: A > 03: A>B > 25: C>B > 23: D>B > 03: E > > 100 ballots (majority threshold = 51) > > Now MJ and Bucklin and any other Median Ratings method elects B. All > methods that I find acceptable elect A both with > and without those 3E ballots. > > > To expand a bit my earlier response to your point 4, I think it's highly > desirable for a method to meet FBC (the Favorite Betrayal > Criterion), especially in the current US situation. > > > Potentially popular candidates the mainstream media and political > establishment doesn't like can be sunk by fake polls and > the voters' fear of some perceived Greater Evil. > > They can say "Forget candidate X! X is only polling at 1 or 2%. That > justifies us ignoring X. If you vote for X you'll just be helping > Greater Evil win!". And their prophesy that X won't be a viable candidate > tends to be self-fulfilling. > > But if the used voting method meets FBC, the voter can in response reply > (or at least think) "Ok, maybe I have to top-rate some > 'realistic' Compromise candidate to maximise the chance of beating > Greater Evil, but I like X and I know that it can't possibly hurt > me to also top-rate X so I will." > > If the method meets FBC no voter who knows and understands that can be > cowed into not voting their sincere favorite at least > equal-top. FBC is met by Approval, MJ and the currently proposed version > of Bucklin, and IBIFA. > > Of those I judge IBIFA to be by far the best. IRV and all Condorcet > methods unfortunately fail FBC. > > For a method that doesn't meet FBC, I consider meeting the Condorcet > criterion to be desirable. Unfortunately all Condorcet > methods are (to greatly varying degrees) vulnerable to Burial strategy, > i.e. insincerely down-ranking to make a higher (usually > top) ranked candidate win. > > In my humble opinion the best of the methods that are invulnerable to > Burial is IRV. > > > Chris Benham > > On 21/05/2019 5:16 am, steve bosworth wrote: > > Re: Best Single- Winner Method > > > Sennet Williams, Forest Simmons, Robert Bristow-Johnson, Abd dul Raman > Lomax, and Chris Benham have recently addressed each others’ claims about > IRV, 3-slot Methods, IBIFA, and Asset. This discussion prompts me to > request some help later after I have clarified several issues. > > Firstly, please correct me if I am mistaken but currently I am assuming > that we all would ideally want the Best Single-Winner Method: > > 1. To be simple enough so voters can both use it and understand how > it is counted; > 2. To minimize the wasting of citizens’ votes (see below), and > 3. To guarantee that the winner among 3 or more candidates is the > candidate most supported by at least 50% plus one (an absolute majority) of > all the citizens voting, and > 4. To offer as few incentives and possibilities for voting tactical. > > Given these desires, currently I see Majority Judgment (MJ) as superior to > all of the above methods on each of these counts. However, since the > above discussions have not mentioned MJ, I assume that many contributors > would reject this claim for MJ. This is why I would very much appreciate > receiving any of your clarifications or explanations of how my claim for MJ > cannot be sustained. What important flaws to you see in MJ? > > To help you to marshal your criticisms of MJ, please let me explain more > full my own understandings and reasons for favoring MJ. Firstly, I see a > citizen’s vote as being wasted *quantitatively* to the degree that it > fails equally to help one of their most trusted candidates to win. A > citizen’s vote is wasted *qualitatively* to the degree that it instead > helps to elect a candidate whom they judge less *fit* for office, rather > than an available candidate judged to be more fit. > > Other than in MJ, such waste is present in all the existing methods, > whether they ask voters to rank, score, or approve as many of the > candidates as they might wish. Of course, most dramatic is the waste > provided by plurality or First-Past-The-Post voting. > > To counter qualitative waste, Balinski and Laraki (*Majority Judgment, *2010 > MIT) argue that our capacity for judging qualities of human behavior can be > most meaningfully expressed in an election by each voter grading each > candidate’s suitability for office as either Excellent (*ideal*), Very > Good, Good, Acceptable, Poor, or “Reject” (*entirely unsuitable*). These > grades are more discerning, meaningful, and informative than merely > expressing preferences or using numeric scores[MOU1] > <#m_-2981034959420349233__msocom_1> , X’s or ticks. Such grading makes > it more likely that the highest quality candidate will be elected in the > eyes of the electorate. > > Each candidate who is not explicitly graded is counted as ”Reject” by that > voter. As a result, all the candidates will receiv the same number of > evaluations, but a different set of grades from the voters. The Majority > Judgment (MJ) winner is the one who has received grades from an absolute > majority of all the voters that are equal to, or higher than, the highest > *median-grade* given to any candidate. This median-grade is found as > follows: > > - Place all the grades, high to low, top to bottom, in side-by-side > columns, the name of each candidate at the top of each of these columns. > - The median-grade for each candidate is the grade located half way > down each column, i.e. in the middle if there is an odd number of voters, > the lower middle if the number is even. > > > If more than one candidate has the same highest median-grade, the MJ > winner is discovered by removing (one-by-one) any grades equal in value to > the current highest median grade from each tied candidate’s total until > only one of the previously tied candidates currently has the highest > remaining median-grade. > > Also, in contrast to the alternatives, Balinski explains how MJ reduces > by almost half, both the incentives and opportunities for effective > tactical voting. Thus, each voter has every appropriate incentive, not > only to vote but to reveal their honest evaluations of each candidate. > > Thus, to me, using MJ should be simpler and more satisfying because > grading many candidates is both easier and more meaningful than ranking or > scoring them. Also, finding and comparing the median-grades of all the > candidate is quite simple. Unlike MJ, IRV, Condorcet methods, and > Scoring do not guarantee the election of the candidate most preferred by at > least 50% plus one of all the citizens voting. Unlike IRV but like > Condorcet methods and Score, MJ does not eliminate any candidate until the > winner is discovered. > > Finally, I would favor the following Asset option to be added at the > bottom of each MJ ballot: Any citizen who currently feels that they do not > yet know enough about any of the candidates to grade them, can instead give > their proxy vote to the Register Elector who will do this for them. They > could do this by WRITING-IN the published code of that Registered Elector. > > I look forward to your comments. > > Steve > ------------------------------ > > [MOU1] <#m_-2981034959420349233__msoanchor_1>Numerical scores > > > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list info > > > > <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free. > www.avg.com > <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> > <#m_-2981034959420349233_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list > info >