On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 22:16 John T Whelan john.whelan@astro.rit.edu
wrote:

No, it just means they aren’t lesser-evil suckers.

The-Two-Choices are for the suckers who believe whatever ther TV tells
them

e.g. the bizarre looney belief that two candidates & parties that none of
us want could be The-Two-Choices.

Yes, it would be better to have a better electoral system. That’s why
we’re all here.

But that doesn’t mean we have to continue to be such complete suckers now.

Michael Ossipoff

Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
info

What’s your magic plan to make a third party candidate win in 2024? A
plan that doesn’t rely on unrepresentative Internet alternative method
polls.

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:43 AM Michael Ossipoff email9648742@gmail.com
wrote:

My magic plan is honest voting.

Not splitting the non-Trump between honest voters & giveaway-sucker
voters.

Not having a high percentage of us throw their vote away on someone none
of us want.

Do you see the lunacy of most of the voters holding their nose & voting
for someone that none of us want?

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 01:15 Michael Garman <
michael.garman@rankthevote.us> wrote:

And how do you intend to make that happen?

On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 4:43 AM Michael Ossipoff email9648742@gmail.com
wrote:

I forgot to mention: RCV & STV don’t allow equa-ranking (though
Condorcet does).

However I wouldn’t call an RCV or STV ballot “spoiled” if it has
equal-ranking. I’d instead just rank any equal-ranked candidates, at
some particular rank-position, in alphabetical-order by last-name

I figure the voter won’t mind, because he doesn’t have any preference
among them.

Is that okay?

Of course, for the RP(wv) count your equal-ranked candidates will be
counted as equal-ranked, because equal-ranking is permissible in
Condorcet.

Additional answers inline below:

On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 16:55 Richard, the VoteFair guy
electionmethods@votefair.org wrote:

 Michael, here is my ballot.

 You can translate this into your desired ballot format.

 If you claim you need a full ranking, then I choose not to vote in
 this
 poll.  That's because I don't have time to research unfamiliar
 candidates and unfamiliar parties.

 In the candidate poll my ballot is that I rank Biden as the only
 "approved" candidate

Okay.

 -- even though I wish he would drop out and
 transfer his delegate votes to nearly anyone.

 I rank Trump at the bottom of the candidate list, below all the other
 candidates

Okay.

 because he wants to destroy democracy, destroy the U.S.
 economy as a favor to Putin, and destroy the U.S. military as another
 favor to Putin.

Yes, The Republican in general, & Trump in particular, always finishes
last, in every Condorcet or STAR poll that includes the Republocratic
candidates & the Progressive candidates.

(In this election-year, Biden is winning the CIVS poll “2024
presidential election”. Likewise in a few STAR polls. …because this
year, some people feel a desperate need to portray Biden winnable, to
try to make people vote for him in November. But ordinarily the
top-finisher & CW is Jill or Bernie…well alright, sometimes a
Libertarian. Never, ever, is the Republican anywhere but bottom.)

…& yet, people actually believe that Jill Stein couldn’t beat him.
Usually she or Bernie is CW, too-finisher in those polls.

So, the usual top-finisher can’t beat the always bottom-finisher?

Wow! What are people smoking?

Hello? The always-bottom-finisher isn’t a threat if we all vote for
the (same) candidate whom we actually all like.

Forget “The-Lesser-Evil” & “The-Two-Choices”.

In Burlington Alaska, it was clearly shown that the median-voters
prefer the more progressive candidates. …in confirmation of those
poll-results.

Lesser-evils voters worry too much!!!

 In between I rank all the other candidates at the same preference
 level,
 and not worth researching to rank them because they lack high-level
 executive experience and expertise.

Okay. As I mentioned, in RCV & STV, it will be necessary to for the
count to rank those equal-ranked candidates in alphabetical-order. Is
that okay?

 In the party poll, I rank the Democratic party as the only "approved"
 party because it's the only party offering a viable candidate.

Okay. The Democrat Party is your party vote, for the Party-PR count.

Though it would be improper for me to comment on your ballot, there’s
no rule that says I can’t comment on political-statements:

See above about the results of Condorcet & STAR polls, & what
Burlington & Alaska showed about the preference of median-voters.

Most people say (in answer to other polls) that they’re tired of
“The-Two-Choices”, & say they want different parties.

So yes the parties other than the Republocratic Party aren’t “viable”,
because only the people want them. :-)

Don’t let the TV tell you what or who is or isn’t “viable”.

Vote honestly in November, for what we all want.  …& certainly not for
someone none of us want, for whom we’d have to hold our nose.

If you’re holding your nose, reconsider your vote.

 Under current circumstances I rank the Republican party at the
 bottom of
 the list, below all other parties.  That's because they are not
 offering
 a candidate who wants to preserve fair elections, protect the U.S.
 against its enemies, and improve the economy.  As another flaw,
 the new
 Republican party platform claims the presidential election will
 not be
 fair if the Republican candidate doesn't win the presidential
 election.

Agreed. Few people want the Republicans. They’d never win an election
with honest voting & honest count.

 In case you didn't notice the above words "only approved party," I'll
 clarify that all the parties other than the Democratic party are
 "unapproved" because they do not offer viable candidates.

Look what the Democrats offer :-)

That’s viable?

..even though most people say they don’t want them?

Are the Democrats more viable than the candidates who usually win the
Condorcet & STAR polls that include the Republocrats & the Progressives?

 Apparently, in this poll, you want me to point to one party as the
 one I
 like.  It's "none of the above."  That's because I dislike all
 current
 U.S. political parties.  Yes, I'm willing to "throw away" this
 vote to
 express this preference

Okay. Done. Your ballot doesn’t cast a vote in the Party-PR balloting.

You dislike all current parties? Have you read all of their platforms?
If not, how do you know you dislike them? What do you dislike about
the policies offered by some of the “3rd-parties” that you’ve heard of?

I’m not trying to get you to change your vote. That would be improper.
Of course your ballot will be counted exactly as you said.

I’m merely participating in the political-discussion.

 Clarification:  I register with either the Republican or Democratic
 party so I can vote in the primary elections of one or the other
 of the
 two parties that supply viable nominees. 

The two parties that none of us want are the only viable ones?

 I switch between those two
 parties periodically.  I dislike them both. 

Yes! We all do!

Switch between them?

Switch out of them!

 I also dislike all third
 parties.

All of them? Regarding the main ones you’ve heard of, which of their
platform-policies do you dislike?

 My dislike of existing political parties is why I promote
 election-method reform! 

Yes, that’s why we’re all here! Dislike of The Two Choices.  …which
obviously are NOT the two choices.

But which platform-policy of the main other parties that you’ve heard
of do you dislike?

 If U.S. election reforms are well-designed,
 then in the future at least one U.S. party will be motivated to offer
 wise problem-solving leaders instead of whatever you want to call
 their
 current nominees.

Regarding the platform-policies & leaders of the parties you’ve heard
of, other than the Democrats & Republicans—what about them isn’t wise,
problem-solving?

Michael Ossipoff

 Richard Fobes



 On 7/16/2024 9:24 PM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:

 ...
 ----
 Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for
 list info

Election-Methods mailing list - seehttps://electorama.com/em  for list info

No, that breaks some axiom that I think is called Anonymity. The
method isn't allowed to discriminate among candidates based on their
on their names.

The simplest would be to construct a random tie-breaking order and
just transfer the whole vote to whichever of the equal-ranked
candidates is highest in the order.

For Hare I consider ideal would be to first divide the vote into tied
fractions summing to 1 to order the remaining candidates and then use
that order to transfer the whole vote.

I assume in the party-PR poll we are just supposed to give our
favourite. Is that correct?

Chris B.

On 18/07/2024 3:01 pm, Michael Ossipoff wrote:

Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for
list info

Richard Fobes

On 7/16/2024 9:24 PM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:

...

Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
info

 I forgot to mention: RCV & STV don’t allow equa-ranking (though
 Condorcet does).

 However I wouldn’t call an RCV or STV ballot “spoiled” if it has
 equal-ranking. I’d instead just rank any equal-ranked candidates,
 at some particular rank-position, *in alphabetical-order by
 last-name*

 I figure the voter won’t mind, because he doesn’t have any
 preference among them.

 Is that okay?

 Of course, for the RP(wv) count your equal-ranked candidates will
 be counted as equal-ranked, because equal-ranking is permissible
 in Condorcet.

 Additional answers inline below:

 On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 16:55 Richard, the VoteFair guy
 <electionmethods@votefair.org> wrote:

     Michael, here is my ballot.

     You can translate this into your desired ballot format.

     If you claim you need a full ranking, then I choose not to
     vote in this
     poll.  That's because I don't have time to research unfamiliar
     candidates and unfamiliar parties.

     In the candidate poll my ballot is that I rank Biden as the only
     "approved" candidate


 Okay.


     -- even though I wish he would drop out and
     transfer his delegate votes to nearly anyone.

     I rank Trump at the bottom of the candidate list, below all
     the other
     candidates


 Okay.

     because he wants to destroy democracy, destroy the U.S.
     economy as a favor to Putin, and destroy the U.S. military as
     another
     favor to Putin.


 Yes, The Republican in general, & Trump in particular, always
 finishes last, in every Condorcet or STAR poll that includes the
 Republocratic candidates & the Progressive candidates.

 (In this election-year, Biden is winning the CIVS poll “2024
 presidential election”. Likewise in a few STAR polls. …because
 this year, some people feel a desperate need to portray Biden
 winnable, to try to make people vote for him in November. But
 ordinarily the top-finisher & CW is Jill or Bernie…well alright,
 sometimes a Libertarian. Never, ever, is the Republican anywhere
 but bottom.)

 …& yet, people actually believe that Jill Stein couldn’t beat
 him. Usually she or Bernie is CW, too-finisher in those polls.

 So, the usual top-finisher can’t beat the always bottom-finisher?

 Wow! What are people smoking?

 Hello? The always-bottom-finisher isn’t a threat if we all vote
 for the (same) candidate whom we actually all like.

 Forget “The-Lesser-Evil” & “The-Two-Choices”.

 In Burlington Alaska, it was clearly shown that the median-voters
 prefer the more progressive candidates. …in confirmation of those
 poll-results.

 Lesser-evils voters worry too much!!!




     In between I rank all the other candidates at the same
     preference level,
     and not worth researching to rank them because they lack
     high-level
     executive experience and expertise.


 Okay. As I mentioned, in RCV & STV, it will be necessary to for
 the count to rank those equal-ranked candidates in
 alphabetical-order. Is that okay?



     In the party poll, I rank the Democratic party as the only
     "approved"
     party because it's the only party offering a viable candidate.


 Okay. The Democrat Party is your party vote, for the Party-PR count.


 Though it would be improper for me to comment on your ballot,
 there’s no rule that says I can’t comment on political-statements:

 See above about the results of Condorcet & STAR polls, & what
 Burlington & Alaska showed about the preference of median-voters.

 Most people say (in answer to other polls) that they’re tired of
 “The-Two-Choices”, & say they want different parties.

 So yes the parties other than the Republocratic Party aren’t
 “viable”, because only the people want them. :-)

 Don’t let the TV tell you what or who is or isn’t “viable”.

 Vote honestly in November, for what we all want.  …& certainly
 not for someone none of us want, for whom we’d have to hold our nose.

 If you’re holding your nose, reconsider your vote.




     Under current circumstances I rank the Republican party at
     the bottom of
     the list, below all other parties.  That's because they are
     not offering
     a candidate who wants to preserve fair elections, protect the
     U.S.
     against its enemies, and improve the economy.  As another
     flaw, the new
     Republican party platform claims the presidential election
     will not be
     fair if the Republican candidate doesn't win the presidential
     election.


 Agreed. Few people want the Republicans. They’d never win an
 election with honest voting & honest count.



     In case you didn't notice the above words "only approved
     party," I'll
     clarify that all the parties other than the Democratic party are
     "unapproved" because they do not offer viable candidates.


 Look what the Democrats offer :-)

 That’s viable?

 ..even though most people say they don’t want them?

 Are the Democrats more viable than the candidates who usually win
 the Condorcet & STAR polls that include the Republocrats & the
 Progressives?



     Apparently, in this poll, you want me to point to one party
     as the one I
     like.  It's "none of the above."  That's because I dislike
     all current
     U.S. political parties.  Yes, I'm willing to "throw away"
     this vote to
     express this preference


 Okay. Done. Your ballot doesn’t cast a vote in the Party-PR
 balloting.

 You dislike all current parties? Have you read all of their
 platforms? If not, how do you know you dislike them? What do you
 dislike about the *policies* offered by some of the “3rd-parties”
 that you’ve heard of?

 I’m not trying to get you to change your vote. That would be
 improper. Of course your ballot will be counted exactly as you said.

 I’m merely participating in the political-discussion.



     Clarification:  I register with either the Republican or
     Democratic
     party so I can vote in the primary elections of one or the
     other of the
     two parties that supply viable nominees. 


 The two parties that none of us want are the only viable ones?





     I switch between those two
     parties periodically.  I dislike them both. 


 Yes! We all do!

 Switch between them?

 Switch out of them!

     I also dislike all third
     parties.


 All of them? Regarding the main ones you’ve heard of, which of
 their platform-policies do you dislike?



     My dislike of existing political parties is why I promote
     election-method reform! 


 Yes, that’s why we’re all here! Dislike of The Two Choices.
  …which obviously are NOT the two choices.

 But which platform-policy of the main other parties that you’ve
 heard of do you dislike?


     If U.S. election reforms are well-designed,
     then in the future at least one U.S. party will be motivated
     to offer
     wise problem-solving leaders instead of whatever you want to
     call their
     current nominees.


 Regarding the platform-policies & leaders of the parties you’ve
 heard of, other than the Democrats & Republicans—what about them
 isn’t wise, problem-solving?

 Michael Ossipoff



     Richard Fobes



     On 7/16/2024 9:24 PM, Michael Ossipoff wrote:

     by the

     ...
     ----
     Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em
     for list info


 ----
 Election-Methods mailing list - seehttps://electorama.com/em  for list info

On 18/07/2024 3:01 pm, Michael Ossipoff wrote:

I forgot to mention: RCV & STV don’t allow equa-ranking (though Condorcet
does).

However I wouldn’t call an RCV or STV ballot “spoiled” if it has
equal-ranking. I’d instead just rank any equal-ranked candidates, at some
particular rank-position, in alphabetical-order by last-name

I figure the voter won’t mind, because he doesn’t have any preference
among them.

Is that okay?

Of course, for the RP(wv) count your equal-ranked candidates will be
counted as equal-ranked, because equal-ranking is permissible in Condorcet.

Additional answers inline below:

On Wed, Jul 17, 2024 at 16:55 Richard, the VoteFair guy <
electionmethods@votefair.org> wrote:

Okay.

-- even though I wish he would drop out and

Okay.

because he wants to destroy democracy, destroy the U.S.

Yes, The Republican in general, & Trump in particular, always finishes
last, in every Condorcet or STAR poll that includes the Republocratic
candidates & the Progressive candidates.

(In this election-year, Biden is winning the CIVS poll “2024 presidential
election”. Likewise in a few STAR polls. …because this year, some people
feel a desperate need to portray Biden winnable, to try to make people vote
for him in November. But ordinarily the top-finisher & CW is Jill or
Bernie…well alright, sometimes a Libertarian. Never, ever, is the
Republican anywhere but bottom.)

…& yet, people actually believe that Jill Stein couldn’t beat him.
Usually she or Bernie is CW, too-finisher in those polls.

So, the usual top-finisher can’t beat the always bottom-finisher?

Wow! What are people smoking?

Hello? The always-bottom-finisher isn’t a threat if we all vote for the
(same) candidate whom we actually all like.

Forget “The-Lesser-Evil” & “The-Two-Choices”.

In Burlington Alaska, it was clearly shown that the median-voters prefer
the more progressive candidates. …in confirmation of those poll-results.

Lesser-evils voters worry too much!!!

Okay. As I mentioned, in RCV & STV, it will be necessary to for the count
to rank those equal-ranked candidates in alphabetical-order. Is that okay?

Okay. The Democrat Party is your party vote, for the Party-PR count.

Though it would be improper for me to comment on your ballot, there’s no
rule that says I can’t comment on political-statements:

See above about the results of Condorcet & STAR polls, & what Burlington
& Alaska showed about the preference of median-voters.

Most people say (in answer to other polls) that they’re tired of
“The-Two-Choices”, & say they want different parties.

So yes the parties other than the Republocratic Party aren’t “viable”,
because only the people want them. :-)

Don’t let the TV tell you what or who is or isn’t “viable”.

Vote honestly in November, for what we all want.  …& certainly not for
someone none of us want, for whom we’d have to hold our nose.

If you’re holding your nose, reconsider your vote.

Agreed. Few people want the Republicans. They’d never win an election
with honest voting & honest count.

Look what the Democrats offer :-)

That’s viable?

..even though most people say they don’t want them?

Are the Democrats more viable than the candidates who usually win the
Condorcet & STAR polls that include the Republocrats & the Progressives?

Okay. Done. Your ballot doesn’t cast a vote in the Party-PR balloting.

You dislike all current parties? Have you read all of their platforms? If
not, how do you know you dislike them? What do you dislike about the
policies offered by some of the “3rd-parties” that you’ve heard of?

I’m not trying to get you to change your vote. That would be improper. Of
course your ballot will be counted exactly as you said.

I’m merely participating in the political-discussion.

The two parties that none of us want are the only viable ones?

Yes! We all do!

Switch between them?

Switch out of them!

I also dislike all third

All of them? Regarding the main ones you’ve heard of, which of their
platform-policies do you dislike?

Yes, that’s why we’re all here! Dislike of The Two Choices.  …which
obviously are NOT the two choices.

But which platform-policy of the main other parties that you’ve heard of
do you dislike?

If U.S. election reforms are well-designed,

Regarding the platform-policies & leaders of the parties you’ve heard of,
other than the Democrats & Republicans—what about them isn’t wise,
problem-solving?

Michael Ossipoff

Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list info

Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list
info