On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 7:45 PM, Fred Gohlke fredgohlke@verizon.net wrote:

Exactly thats the reason why the trend will be to run one's private life as
a business and get organized, because: "People are not lemmings".
Currently most people ARE LEMMINGS (sometimes labeled "zombies") who
blindly follow what employers tell them, because they fail to see the big
picture of what their corporation is doing in society. If people would
start to collaborate as independent "self employed" freelancers, they need
to reflect WAY MORE - so they are way less likely to become lemmings.

Interesting.
I think they will become "some kind of party", by the fact that those
people "work" together on a daily basis and they get to know each other and
they synchronize their thoughts over time, while people in every day life
engage in other things and some might start to not be strongly in touch
with whomever they support.
The best approach would be to upgrade all the things with digital
technology - because if you look beyond "technology", what it is is just an
opportunity of increased connectedness of everyone with everyone else at
all times, having lightning fast communication (maybe even semi-automated),
so that people can participate in a more self employed way.

--
DISCLAIMER:

Everything I have written above is my personal experience/opinion on
things, no matter what kinds of words i did use(e.g. "always", "never",
"impossible", "waste of time", ....).

Such extreme words only do indicate, that my experience/opinion on
something is very strong and i currently cannot imagine that there are
other possibilities until new arguments/insights/whatever open my eyes that
there are alternative perspectives too :-)Please do not feel discouraged to
challenge my opinion if you have a different one.

Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Alexander Praetorius
Bornemannstrasse 17
D - 60599 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Germany
*[skype] *alexander.praetorius
*[mail] *citizen@serapath.de alexander.praetorius@serapath.de
*[web] *http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath

On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:35 PM, Fred Gohlke fredgohlke@verizon.net wrote:

This is not what I meant by that. They are totally not in their private
life, but most people work 40h+ a week and business is basically making the
world spin. Provides homes, food, health care, computers, cars, all kinds
of technology, basically all the goods and products.
So yes, everyone is not a "Lemming" when it comes to being a "consumer",
because of course, everyone has the power to decide how they spend the
money, but it's only one side. The other is who makes the decisions to
offer certain products & services and markets them and builds supply chains
and here its only the owners/managers/politicians (which are a fraction of
the population) and they decide, while employees don't have a say in that,
and thats exactly why they get paid for their work.

So I do not look down on those and me, often doing freelance work, where i
do not have many, but basically one main client (which is very similar to
what employees face when they have one employer). So I'm sitting in the
same boat, even though I try to change it more and more.

I dont think they can. I think they have to empower people by making tax
laws easier and all the rules around getting self employed, because "self
employment" (single people working in a network of self employed which
spans supply chains in similar ways that companies do it internally) will
spawn a huge market for "democracy/voting" apps that utilize all kinds of
methods and that ecosystem will enable democracy to flourish and everyone
who is doing the research on methods, to actually provide services in form
of apps which give everyone in need access to "voting tools".

Then later on, people in a certain kind of business can start to negaotiate
with political parties and institutions how they can optimize the way they
interact.
It's not something that can be handed down to the people by some
enlightened party, it is something that has to grow in a grassroots way. So
the best the party could do is to try to remove all the barriers that exist
and spawn maybe some programs that enable people to transition into "self
organization" "self employement" "self directedness" when it comes to
business, which is the moving force behind the economy.

• Offer Providers to directly connect their "Apps" to computers of
  institutions (regarding all kinds of reportings), so that those providers
  can make it easier for people to use those Apps to manage their self
  employment. It has to become super cheap (regarding monthly costs & time
  spent for bureaucracy) to run/manage their own business.
• Create standards on how people can register an "electronic identity",
  with which they can deliver a vote on/for certain issues or create
  proposals, so certain business would integrate that into the apps they
  offer to the self employed - so all the self employed person needs is to
  register for a "electronic signature" to put into their app to give votes
  on certain issues connected to their life or business

Only the internet can bring democracy to the next level.
Whatever is/was possible without the internet has already been done to the
best way possible in the past.

--
DISCLAIMER:

Everything I have written above is my personal experience/opinion on
things, no matter what kinds of words i did use(e.g. "always", "never",
"impossible", "waste of time", ....).

Such extreme words only do indicate, that my experience/opinion on
something is very strong and i currently cannot imagine that there are
other possibilities until new arguments/insights/whatever open my eyes that
there are alternative perspectives too :-)Please do not feel discouraged to
challenge my opinion if you have a different one.

Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Alexander Praetorius
Bornemannstrasse 17
D - 60599 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Germany
*[skype] *alexander.praetorius
*[mail] *citizen@serapath.de alexander.praetorius@serapath.de
*[web] *http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath

On Sat, Jul 11, 2015 at 4:34 PM, Fred Gohlke fredgohlke@verizon.net wrote:

Yes, because the general population or people have expertise in their
business domain, and this is were they can engage if given the opportunity.
If not, then we have to stay with the status quo were only the political
elite will lead the discourse and they fail more and more in the ever
increasing complexity of our every day life.

Yes, that has been so traditionally and still is, but it's also that the
political system is constrained by the economic realities, so it's a bit
one sided to put it like that.

And political power can only be exercises by the constrains the economic
reality puts forth. I like to empower people in their every day work.

What I am talking about is empowering "small people" to start making
decisions on their own and network with partners and say good bye to their
traditional employers.
The millions of people that go to work like zombies for 40h+ every week is
what gives all that power to those big corporations you mention.
So as soon as all those millions of employees decide to be on their own in
their field/domain of business (and that's what they have knowledge and/or
expertise in) and collaborate with others, they stop empowering those big
corporations (which are basically very well connected with politics, to a
degree that it becomes indistinguishable)

No, it's not the political system that empowers them - that's a bullshit
story.
What empowers them are millions of employees, who go to work and execute
what is told to them and they do that for 40h+ every week. If they instead
would use online tools to manage/coordinate business processes that span
across different self employed individuals, that would take away the power
from the corporations.

EXACTLY!
And that's why i strongly believe it has to start in business. The
profession people pursue for 40h+ every week is where they have insights
and knowledge. It's where they have an oppinion and if they collaborate
with others based on their skills and in their "domain of business", they
have a common goal, which is to successfully create products and services
that others pay for and satisfy needs. So it will not be "babble", but will
be very focused and the more experience people gain, the more
"farsightedness" they will display in those dicisions.
So the general public will start their "political carreer" starting with
their personal skills and professions and from there it will grow to reach
virtually every field of politics, by spanning larger and large supply
chains and the whole culture around it... but it has to start somewhere :-)

People work. That's what causes action. They can work like sheep or they
can wake up and decide what kind of work they engage and under which
circumstances and with which partners. This is where political choice
starts and it grows from there.

I do not believe people have time for that. It needs to be possible to
combine business and politics. Everything that keeps them from exercising
their professional skills will not work.
It would only serve to proof, that "it doesnt work" and discourage them
from trying and instead again delegating "political power" to
representatives...

I can represent myself, i dont need and dont want any delegates. I do
business with partners and together we try to figure out how to move from
there.
Traditional politics is incapable of bringing the chance necessary.
Traditional politics has to vanish in order to bring forth real democracy,

This is an illusion. If you will measure voting or participation and
compare that to the amount of people that could participate, you will see
it will never work. It can never work.

Campaigning starts to stop work, as soon as people realize the answer is
not in people out there explaining the world, but the answer lies in
themselves and their community and they have to start with the immediate
people surrounding them. They have to decide what they want to do and how
they want to do it and with whom and then establish policies around that
and once it works - they talk to other "business networks" and figure out
what kind of culture those have and how to have a dialog with them about
how to improve business and wealth.
I dont see what politicians can do here. They should rather quit politics
and learn some skills that bring real value.

empty words. I dont believe. If there is a small group of people or an
individual that has the power to decide about the fate of a large group of
people, this will atomatically motivate forces to corrupt those in order to
decide in favour of some particular interest groups. They are systemically
the "weak spot" in our political system. I don't feel like making myself
vulnerable by delegating power to a few people who then will sell me and
others - and in the long run they always will.

I wish you the best with that. Maybe it'll succeed. I cannot imagine, but
probably there will be improvements if you see them - maybe it will make it
slightly better than the status quo.

--
DISCLAIMER:

Everything I have written above is my personal experience/opinion on
things, no matter what kinds of words i did use(e.g. "always", "never",
"impossible", "waste of time", ....).

Such extreme words only do indicate, that my experience/opinion on
something is very strong and i currently cannot imagine that there are
other possibilities until new arguments/insights/whatever open my eyes that
there are alternative perspectives too :-)Please do not feel discouraged to
challenge my opinion if you have a different one.

Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Alexander Praetorius
Bornemannstrasse 17
D - 60599 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Germany
*[skype] *alexander.praetorius
*[mail] *citizen@serapath.de alexander.praetorius@serapath.de
*[web] *http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath

I'm sad to say, that it's hard for me to imagine what politicians could do
to improve the situation of people in their everyday life.
I can see how "business" can and does change the every day life of people.
It's about whether people earn money,    because MONEY = VOTES, it gives
people the power to vote on what they want others to do for them.
It's about whether people spend money, because MONEY = VOTES, it gives
people the power to vote on what they want others to do for them.

Most people have very few "votes" and need to earn more in order to get
more.
Most people have NO SAY in how they do business and earn money - even when
they choose their profession, the decide early in their life and transition
is not trivial.

This is how REAL DEMOCRACY works!

1. MONEY = VOTES
2. BUYING = VOTING
3. SELLING = BEING a CANDIDATE that others can VOTE for :-)

AND YES...
The way our current money works is pretty flawed and so our "REAL
DEMOCRACY" is pretty broken, but to make it work, the rules around
democracy (which is how money works), needs to be fixed, to make it mean
something in the ways i describe above.
The ECONOMY is our real democracy and people buy/sell every day and thus
participate EVERY DAY.
We need to UPGRADE this democracy, by:

1. fixing money (and talk about what could be fixed)
2. augmenting it with all kinds of apps/meetings/events/activities that
   inform people better and guide this democracy

The FAKE BULLSHIT (which is voting every couple of years on which party
(they are the same anyways) gets king for a period of time) has to disolve.

This might sound radical, but please step back for a while and imagine,
that money would work not as it works today with central banks and rigged
rules (see europe/greece), but in the best possible version you could
imagine - basically some kind of utopia/fairytale currency... (which might
not be so far away from today if you have ever heard of a technology called
"BLOCKCHAIN") ...so under this light, maybe what i describe as "REAL
DEMOCRACY" makes sense? :-)

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 4:02 PM, Fred Gohlke fredgohlke@verizon.net wrote:

--
DISCLAIMER:

Everything I have written above is my personal experience/opinion on
things, no matter what kinds of words i did use(e.g. "always", "never",
"impossible", "waste of time", ....).

Such extreme words only do indicate, that my experience/opinion on
something is very strong and i currently cannot imagine that there are
other possibilities until new arguments/insights/whatever open my eyes that
there are alternative perspectives too :-)Please do not feel discouraged to
challenge my opinion if you have a different one.

Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Alexander Praetorius
Bornemannstrasse 17
D - 60599 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Germany
*[skype] *alexander.praetorius
*[mail] *citizen@serapath.de alexander.praetorius@serapath.de
*[web] *http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath

Alex,

I've been loosely following this thread and had a few questions.  As one
thing that Fred mentions near the start of his reply below relates to
one of my questions, I thought I would ask:-

(1) Do you expect individuals like those who are both deaf and blind,
itinerant gypsies, prisoners, those with dementia or other mental
disability, or a family member who is caring 24 hours a day for a
relative with such illnesses, to set up as their own business so that
they are self employed, which would enable them to have their say?

(2) From what I can tell, a large proportion of China consists of small
personal businesses, a good example being sole market sellers.  Is this
a better start for a democracy than what several European countries
have, who are more dependent on big businesses?

(3) Every business in the UK needs an external accountant to audit the
business.  Each business must pay for such a compulsory "service".  Do
you expect each self employed individual, whose main aim is to have a
voice in society, to pay for such a "service"?

Thanks,
Gervase.

On Thu, 2015-07-16 at 14:40 -0400, Fred Gohlke wrote:

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Fred Gohlke fredgohlke@verizon.net wrote:

Spending Money equals Voting in general!
=> You delegate power to the person you pay
=> The paid person can then make other people do things by spending it again
This is what moves people every day and shapes reality.

Spending Money equals Voting in general!!
=> You are elected by being paid
=> You can then decide how others should shape reality, by paying, thus
"spending votes" on whatever change you want to see (e.g. a cake being
baked for you)
This is what moves people every day and shapes reality.

I don't understand what you mean by that.

YES!
=> There  is "Fairytale Democracy" (you delegate "a vote" indirectly once
every couple of years to a group/person with (in practice) a lot of money
and influence and give him/her a "blank cheque")
=> There is "Real Democracy" (every human participates EVERY DAY in ALL
KINDS OF DECISIONS) by getting elected (paid) and voting on many micro
issues (spending money)
Sadly most intellectuals are trapped in "Fairytale Landia" and philosophize
about what changes to apply to "Fairytale Democracy", but should instead
try to rethink "REAL DEMOCRACY" to get rid of the issues you mention above.

Just wake up :-)
=> FAKE BULLSHIT means: *"Fairytale Democracy" *(see above)
A first step would be to realize, that our *economy *and more specific
earning/spending money is the real "voting" that makes the world spin and
people execute activities every day. It's only then, when intellectuals can
actually philosophize on how to improve democracy in order to prevent the
shortcomings you labeled:

• "work for cheap under horrible conditions"
• it is not available to those who need their resources to feed their
  families

YES!
=> See Definition of "Fairytale Democracy" above. You confirm and admit
there is a farce.
Actually it's even worse - because parties dont tell people what political
choices they have - people make a cross every couple of years and
politicians (which requires a lot of money to be "visible" to people in
order to receive any votes at all) will basically do whatever they think
makes sense to them.

TRUE and NOT TRUE!
Thats a very individual thing.
=> The internet allows everyone who wants to become more free to reach out
for diverse informations and discuss with people how to improve this world.
=> Those who are lazy and don't make use of the options given to them help
to turn everything into an oligarchy.
=> "Robbing" needs robbers on one side, but also people who don't give a
shit about them and others being robbed and indirectly help the robbers.
I do not agree, that the* "explosion of mass communications and the
application of behavioral science have given party politics a stranglehold
on the people" *follows from the technology, but instead, the fact we have
this technologies also enables the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you say - it's a
matter of choice whether people use it for one or the other.
Maybe politicians or certain interest groups want to use it for "robbery",
but every person has a choice to easily counter that, by engaging and not
being passive.

Oligarchies convince intellectual that we live in "Fairytale Democracy"
and not "Real Democracy"
=> If those who are interested and have the intellectual capacity would
stop being useless by philosophizing about a hypothetical world with all
kinds of constraints
and instead
=> Start thinking about how to improve the rules in "Real Democracy" to
empower people
...that would make a major difference.

sure, but the best they do is to convince people, that the public debate
should be about them and that the rules in "Fairytale Democracy" actually
matter.

I DISAGREE
The only product they have to cell is convince people that "Fairytale
Democracy" matters when it comes to shaping reality.
That way, all intellectual efforts are channeled into discussing and
improving rules that do not matter, while "Real Democracy" is actually
shaping the world - and people are merely passive observers that do 40h+ a
week contribute to that "reality shaping process" called economy.
In order to make sure, that "Fairytale Democracy" doesnt interfer, because
actually gigantic efforts of people living in "Fairytale Democracy"
sometimes might lead to influence reality remotely, "Real Democracy"
(spending of money) can make sure, it doesnt, because in the end "Real
Democracy" (see above) is what truly shapes reality.
=> BECAUSE: It decides what billions of people DO every day around the
world

*Haha :-)*Of course - in fairytale landia, it's pretty hard to find any
issues at all and identify them, because the real issues exist in reality
and "REAL DEMOCRACY", which is the monetary system, central banking, the
economy and how billions of people spend their time every day working to
shape reality.
As long as people do not wake up to this fact, it will stay difficult
forever to identify any kind of important issues, because how can you find
them if you look at the wrong spots.

It is unfortunate that the many bright and thoughtful people who post on

If the "Frown Town Council" wants to contribute, then it should use it's
position to explain to people how irrelevant they are and that people
should start focusing their attention and brain processing power on issues
that matter - ... if the "Frown Town Council" fails to do so, in essence,
it will contribute to the joint effort of all politics to keep people
focused on "FAIRYDALE DEMOCRACY" and by that it will help those forces that
are happy about this fact - mainly the forces you mention throughout your
response :-)

--
DISCLAIMER:

Everything I have written above is my personal experience/opinion on
things, no matter what kinds of words i did use(e.g. "always", "never",
"impossible", "waste of time", ....).

Such extreme words only do indicate, that my experience/opinion on
something is very strong and i currently cannot imagine that there are
other possibilities until new arguments/insights/whatever open my eyes that
there are alternative perspectives too :-)Please do not feel discouraged to
challenge my opinion if you have a different one.

Best Regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Alexander Praetorius
Bornemannstrasse 17
D - 60599 Frankfurt am Main
Germany
Germany
*[skype] *alexander.praetorius
*[mail] *citizen@serapath.de alexander.praetorius@serapath.de
*[web] *http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Benutzer:Serapath