Hi everyone, I work at a Czech institute researching voting methods, and a while back I took an interest in the approval voting elections in Fargo. While I was running the numbers, trying to build a model for a separate project, I noticed that the approval vote results have never been accurately reported in Fargo. The winners are right, but the percentages are not. They've never crossed 50% approval despite being widely reported that way. I posted an explanation of this on our website: https://www.ih21.org/aktuality/approval-voting-in-fargo When I realized that another election is coming up and that, as far as I can tell, nobody else has made the methodology publicly known yet, I wanted to get this out there. I also thought you guys might find it interesting. EM

Thanks for the information. Though some of us will write to them about the mis-reporting, I hope that you will too, or already have. They should definitely hear from the person who noticed it, & not just 2nd-hand. It’s a relief that the winners have been correctly reported. Again, thank you for pointing that error out. On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 05:28 Evangeline Moore <evangeline.moore@ih21.org> wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I work at a Czech institute researching voting methods, and a while back I > took an interest in the approval voting elections in Fargo. While I was > running the numbers, trying to build a model for a separate project, I > noticed that the approval vote results have never been accurately reported > in Fargo. The winners are right, but the percentages are not. They've never > crossed 50% approval despite being widely reported that way. > > I posted an explanation of this on our website: > https://www.ih21.org/aktuality/approval-voting-in-fargo When I realized > that another election is coming up and that, as far as I can tell, nobody > else has made the methodology publicly known yet, I wanted to get this out > there. I also thought you guys might find it interesting. > > EM > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list > info >

Yeah, the vote totals were completely correct; the issue was Fargo didn’t report voter turnout or the number of ballots, weirdly enough. On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 7:42 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for the information. Though some of us will write to them about the > mis-reporting, I hope that you will too, or already have. They should > definitely hear from the person who noticed it, & not just 2nd-hand. > > It’s a relief that the winners have been correctly reported. > > Again, thank you for pointing that error out. > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 05:28 Evangeline Moore <evangeline.moore@ih21.org> > wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> I work at a Czech institute researching voting methods, and a while back >> I took an interest in the approval voting elections in Fargo. While I was >> running the numbers, trying to build a model for a separate project, I >> noticed that the approval vote results have never been accurately reported >> in Fargo. The winners are right, but the percentages are not. They've never >> crossed 50% approval despite being widely reported that way. >> >> I posted an explanation of this on our website: >> https://www.ih21.org/aktuality/approval-voting-in-fargo When I realized >> that another election is coming up and that, as far as I can tell, nobody >> else has made the methodology publicly known yet, I wanted to get this out >> there. I also thought you guys might find it interesting. >> >> EM >> ---- >> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >> info >> > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list > info >

Turns out approval has its own counting vulnerabilities. I hope someone lets Harper’s magazine know! On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 10:42 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for the information. Though some of us will write to them about the > mis-reporting, I hope that you will too, or already have. They should > definitely hear from the person who noticed it, & not just 2nd-hand. > > It’s a relief that the winners have been correctly reported. > > Again, thank you for pointing that error out. > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 05:28 Evangeline Moore <evangeline.moore@ih21.org> > wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> I work at a Czech institute researching voting methods, and a while back >> I took an interest in the approval voting elections in Fargo. While I was >> running the numbers, trying to build a model for a separate project, I >> noticed that the approval vote results have never been accurately reported >> in Fargo. The winners are right, but the percentages are not. They've never >> crossed 50% approval despite being widely reported that way. >> >> I posted an explanation of this on our website: >> https://www.ih21.org/aktuality/approval-voting-in-fargo When I realized >> that another election is coming up and that, as far as I can tell, nobody >> else has made the methodology publicly known yet, I wanted to get this out >> there. I also thought you guys might find it interesting. >> >> EM >> ---- >> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >> info >> > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list > info >

Errors happen . If it had been a Condorcet or IRV election, does anyone want to bet that an error wouldn’t be more likely to elect the wrong person? …as it has already done in IRV. On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 19:41 Michael Ossipoff <email9648742@gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for the information. Though some of us will write to them about the > mis-reporting, I hope that you will too, or already have. They should > definitely hear from the person who noticed it, & not just 2nd-hand. > > It’s a relief that the winners have been correctly reported. > > Again, thank you for pointing that error out. > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 05:28 Evangeline Moore <evangeline.moore@ih21.org> > wrote: > >> Hi everyone, >> >> I work at a Czech institute researching voting methods, and a while back >> I took an interest in the approval voting elections in Fargo. While I was >> running the numbers, trying to build a model for a separate project, I >> noticed that the approval vote results have never been accurately reported >> in Fargo. The winners are right, but the percentages are not. They've never >> crossed 50% approval despite being widely reported that way. >> >> I posted an explanation of this on our website: >> https://www.ih21.org/aktuality/approval-voting-in-fargo When I realized >> that another election is coming up and that, as far as I can tell, nobody >> else has made the methodology publicly known yet, I wanted to get this out >> there. I also thought you guys might find it interesting. >> >> EM >> ---- >> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >> info >> >

“When my preferred method breaks down, it’s just one of those things. When any other method breaks down, it’s incontrovertible evidence that the method is worthless.” On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 10:47 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742@gmail.com> wrote: > Errors happen . If it had been a Condorcet or IRV election, does anyone > want to bet that an error wouldn’t be more likely to elect the wrong > person? …as it has already done in IRV. > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 19:41 Michael Ossipoff <email9648742@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Thanks for the information. Though some of us will write to them about >> the mis-reporting, I hope that you will too, or already have. They should >> definitely hear from the person who noticed it, & not just 2nd-hand. >> >> It’s a relief that the winners have been correctly reported. >> >> Again, thank you for pointing that error out. >> >> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 05:28 Evangeline Moore <evangeline.moore@ih21.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> I work at a Czech institute researching voting methods, and a while back >>> I took an interest in the approval voting elections in Fargo. While I was >>> running the numbers, trying to build a model for a separate project, I >>> noticed that the approval vote results have never been accurately reported >>> in Fargo. The winners are right, but the percentages are not. They've never >>> crossed 50% approval despite being widely reported that way. >>> >>> I posted an explanation of this on our website: >>> https://www.ih21.org/aktuality/approval-voting-in-fargo When I realized >>> that another election is coming up and that, as far as I can tell, nobody >>> else has made the methodology publicly known yet, I wanted to get this out >>> there. I also thought you guys might find it interesting. >>> >>> EM >>> ---- >>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >>> info >>> >> ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list > info >

Michael—as mentioned, the error was a minor mistake in converting the vote totals to percentages, because Fargo didn’t report turnout (so it had to be estimated based on votes on other ballot initiatives). It’s not a tabulation error, like the ones we’ve seen for IRV elections. IRV races have sometimes even declared the wrong winner because of the complexity of aggregating all the votes (non-summability). On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 7:47 PM Michael Garman <michael.garman@rankthevote.us> wrote: > Turns out approval has its own counting vulnerabilities. I hope someone > lets Harper’s magazine know! > > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 10:42 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Thanks for the information. Though some of us will write to them about >> the mis-reporting, I hope that you will too, or already have. They should >> definitely hear from the person who noticed it, & not just 2nd-hand. >> >> It’s a relief that the winners have been correctly reported. >> >> Again, thank you for pointing that error out. >> >> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 05:28 Evangeline Moore <evangeline.moore@ih21.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> I work at a Czech institute researching voting methods, and a while back >>> I took an interest in the approval voting elections in Fargo. While I was >>> running the numbers, trying to build a model for a separate project, I >>> noticed that the approval vote results have never been accurately reported >>> in Fargo. The winners are right, but the percentages are not. They've never >>> crossed 50% approval despite being widely reported that way. >>> >>> I posted an explanation of this on our website: >>> https://www.ih21.org/aktuality/approval-voting-in-fargo When I realized >>> that another election is coming up and that, as far as I can tell, nobody >>> else has made the methodology publicly known yet, I wanted to get this out >>> there. I also thought you guys might find it interesting. >>> >>> EM >>> ---- >>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >>> info >>> >> ---- >> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >> info >> > ---- > Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list > info >

Still an error that led to lies. Seems bad! On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 10:51 PM Closed Limelike Curves < closed.limelike.curves@gmail.com> wrote: > Michael—as mentioned, the error was a minor mistake in converting the vote > totals to percentages, because Fargo didn’t report turnout (so it had to be > estimated based on votes on other ballot initiatives). > > It’s not a tabulation error, like the ones we’ve seen for IRV elections. > IRV races have sometimes even declared the wrong winner because of the > complexity of aggregating all the votes (non-summability). > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 7:47 PM Michael Garman < > michael.garman@rankthevote.us> wrote: > >> Turns out approval has its own counting vulnerabilities. I hope someone >> lets Harper’s magazine know! >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 10:42 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the information. Though some of us will write to them about >>> the mis-reporting, I hope that you will too, or already have. They should >>> definitely hear from the person who noticed it, & not just 2nd-hand. >>> >>> It’s a relief that the winners have been correctly reported. >>> >>> Again, thank you for pointing that error out. >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 05:28 Evangeline Moore <evangeline.moore@ih21.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi everyone, >>>> >>>> I work at a Czech institute researching voting methods, and a while >>>> back I took an interest in the approval voting elections in Fargo. While I >>>> was running the numbers, trying to build a model for a separate project, I >>>> noticed that the approval vote results have never been accurately reported >>>> in Fargo. The winners are right, but the percentages are not. They've never >>>> crossed 50% approval despite being widely reported that way. >>>> >>>> I posted an explanation of this on our website: >>>> https://www.ih21.org/aktuality/approval-voting-in-fargo When I >>>> realized that another election is coming up and that, as far as I can tell, >>>> nobody else has made the methodology publicly known yet, I wanted to get >>>> this out there. I also thought you guys might find it interesting. >>>> >>>> EM >>>> ---- >>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >>>> info >>>> >>> ---- >>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >>> info >>> >> ---- >> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >> info >> >

On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 19:52 Michael Garman <michael.garman@rankthevote.us> wrote: > Still an error that led to lies. Seems bad! > Are you *trying* to sound silly? It was an error. There weren’t lies. Richie & others IRV promoters have had their “error” explained to them for 35 years. Richie even promising to stop telling the “mid-statement”, but then continued to do so. Yeah, you don’t believe that without proof. I wasn’t at the meeting. Sara Wolk was. If you want substantiation, she’s the one to ask. She’ll tell tell you who else was there. I believe that Clay Shentrup was there. …& Aaron, who at that time led CES. But maybe it’s all a conspiracy, like the one where people say Trump did things? :-) > Anyway IRV has violated FairVote’s promise right in front of their face, but they keep repeating the “mis-statement”. > > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 10:51 PM Closed Limelike Curves < > closed.limelike.curves@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Michael—as mentioned, the error was a minor mistake in converting the >> vote totals to percentages, because Fargo didn’t report turnout (so it had >> to be estimated based on votes on other ballot initiatives). >> >> It’s not a tabulation error, like the ones we’ve seen for IRV elections. >> IRV races have sometimes even declared the wrong winner because of the >> complexity of aggregating all the votes (non-summability). >> >> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 7:47 PM Michael Garman < >> michael.garman@rankthevote.us> wrote: >> >>> Turns out approval has its own counting vulnerabilities. I hope someone >>> lets Harper’s magazine know! >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 10:42 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks for the information. Though some of us will write to them about >>>> the mis-reporting, I hope that you will too, or already have. They should >>>> definitely hear from the person who noticed it, & not just 2nd-hand. >>>> >>>> It’s a relief that the winners have been correctly reported. >>>> >>>> Again, thank you for pointing that error out. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 05:28 Evangeline Moore < >>>> evangeline.moore@ih21.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> >>>>> I work at a Czech institute researching voting methods, and a while >>>>> back I took an interest in the approval voting elections in Fargo. While I >>>>> was running the numbers, trying to build a model for a separate project, I >>>>> noticed that the approval vote results have never been accurately reported >>>>> in Fargo. The winners are right, but the percentages are not. They've never >>>>> crossed 50% approval despite being widely reported that way. >>>>> >>>>> I posted an explanation of this on our website: >>>>> https://www.ih21.org/aktuality/approval-voting-in-fargo When I >>>>> realized that another election is coming up and that, as far as I can tell, >>>>> nobody else has made the methodology publicly known yet, I wanted to get >>>>> this out there. I also thought you guys might find it interesting. >>>>> >>>>> EM >>>>> ---- >>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for >>>>> list info >>>>> >>>> ---- >>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >>>> info >>>> >>> ---- >>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >>> info >>> >>

> It was an error. There weren’t lies. Incorrect results were promoted as correct. That’s called lying. And, by your logic, it makes the promotion of the system fraudulent and it should be automatically rejected. Oops! :D On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 11:12 PM Michael Ossipoff <email9648742@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 19:52 Michael Garman <michael.garman@rankthevote.us> > wrote: > >> Still an error that led to lies. Seems bad! >> > > Are you *trying* to sound silly? > > It was an error. There weren’t lies. > > Richie & others IRV promoters have had their “error” explained to them for > 35 years. Richie even promising to stop telling the “mid-statement”, but > then continued to do so. > > Yeah, you don’t believe that without proof. I wasn’t at the meeting. Sara > Wolk was. If you want substantiation, she’s the one to ask. She’ll tell > tell you who else was there. I believe that Clay Shentrup was there. …& > Aaron, who at that time led CES. > > But maybe it’s all a conspiracy, like the one where people say Trump did > things? :-) > >> > Anyway IRV has violated FairVote’s promise right in front of their face, > but they keep repeating the “mis-statement”. > >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 10:51 PM Closed Limelike Curves < >> closed.limelike.curves@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Michael—as mentioned, the error was a minor mistake in converting the >>> vote totals to percentages, because Fargo didn’t report turnout (so it had >>> to be estimated based on votes on other ballot initiatives). >>> >>> It’s not a tabulation error, like the ones we’ve seen for IRV elections. >>> IRV races have sometimes even declared the wrong winner because of the >>> complexity of aggregating all the votes (non-summability). >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 7:47 PM Michael Garman < >>> michael.garman@rankthevote.us> wrote: >>> >>>> Turns out approval has its own counting vulnerabilities. I hope someone >>>> lets Harper’s magazine know! >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 10:42 PM Michael Ossipoff < >>>> email9648742@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks for the information. Though some of us will write to them about >>>>> the mis-reporting, I hope that you will too, or already have. They should >>>>> definitely hear from the person who noticed it, & not just 2nd-hand. >>>>> >>>>> It’s a relief that the winners have been correctly reported. >>>>> >>>>> Again, thank you for pointing that error out. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 05:28 Evangeline Moore < >>>>> evangeline.moore@ih21.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> >>>>>> I work at a Czech institute researching voting methods, and a while >>>>>> back I took an interest in the approval voting elections in Fargo. While I >>>>>> was running the numbers, trying to build a model for a separate project, I >>>>>> noticed that the approval vote results have never been accurately reported >>>>>> in Fargo. The winners are right, but the percentages are not. They've never >>>>>> crossed 50% approval despite being widely reported that way. >>>>>> >>>>>> I posted an explanation of this on our website: >>>>>> https://www.ih21.org/aktuality/approval-voting-in-fargo When I >>>>>> realized that another election is coming up and that, as far as I can tell, >>>>>> nobody else has made the methodology publicly known yet, I wanted to get >>>>>> this out there. I also thought you guys might find it interesting. >>>>>> >>>>>> EM >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for >>>>>> list info >>>>>> >>>>> ---- >>>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for >>>>> list info >>>>> >>>> ---- >>>> Election-Methods mailing list - see https://electorama.com/em for list >>>> info >>>> >>>